Bug in the ear of the Chinese cloners...

[Wyvern]

Peter, I did find that when I tried a 3+1 Eb after 2 year gap that I had trouble co-ordination the left hand with the right - I can see that must be a problem for those who have never played that valve arrangement.

Also there is no doubt a top valve tuba is not so comfortable to hold. In my case quite painful after a while since I suffered shoulder injury.

On the plus side, no doubt does the 3+1 arrangement facilitate moving around in the low register as from low Bb down to E it can be played as a virtual 3 valve BBb

[TUBAD83]

I can see these clones eventually killing the German/Swiss tuba manufactures except a few small ones handmaking for the premium market. Will the likes of Miraphone, Willson, Hirsbrunner, Meinl-Weston, or B&S still be in existence in 5 years? When I visited B&S they were already working reduced hours due to low sales - how long can that continue? If they get priced out, who is going to do the research to produce new models most people seem to desire?

Also the clones are likely to have a severely detrimental effect on the resell value of used quality tubas - only the most discerning buyers will pay more for a used genuine Miraphone than a brand new clone.

Jonathan "having just walked past a fast food outlet signed DFC and clearly intended to imitate, knows the Chinese have no scruples at plagiarism"

The folks who buy these clones are looking for the best tuba available in their price range. ---they are not looking to spend 4K (which is about the average price of a used name brand axe in good condition on ebay and craigslist) or more and they are certainly NOT looking to spend 6k or more for a new name brand tuba. To borrow KJV's analogy: the Timex buyers are looking for the best quality Timex for their money--they would never seriously consider buying a Rolex--too damn high! Another thing: the folks who want and insist on having "the genuine article" would never seriously consider buying a clone. Two sets of consumers-two different markets.

JJ

[b.williams]

I wonder what horn we would choose if one of each available brand/model of tuba was put into a large stadium without brand name or price tag.

[TexTuba]

The folks who buy these clones are looking for the best tuba available in their price range. ---they are not looking to spend 4K (which is about the average price of a used name brand axe in good condition on ebay and craigslist) or more and they are certainly NOT looking to spend 6k or more for a new name brand tuba. To borrow KJV's analogy: the Timex buyers are looking for the best quality Timex for their money--they would never seriously consider buying a Rolex--too damn high! Another thing: the folks who want and insist on having "the genuine article" would never seriously consider buying a clone. Two sets of consumers-two different markets.

JJ

Bingo.

[bort]

Although, Jonathan, I'm also curious what the resell value of the clones will be like over time when people want to upgrade later on. But personally, I can't wait to have a Miraphone again.

[Michael Bush]

Although, Jonathan, I'm also curious what the resell value of the clones will be like over time when people want to upgrade later on. But personally, I can't wait to have a Miraphone again.

The person who sold me the one I had lost a good deal of money from buying it new, but then when I sold it I made money on it.

[bort]

Although, Jonathan, I'm also curious what the resell value of the clones will be like over time when people want to upgrade later on. But personally, I can't wait to have a Miraphone again.

The person who sold me the one I had lost a good deal of money from buying it new, but then when I sold it I made money on it.

Interesting... but I'm thinking like 5 or 10 years down the road. (To go along with the analogy, there's really no market for used Timex watches, but an old Rolex is still worth a lot of money.)

[prototypedenNIS]

To borrow KJV's analogy: the Timex buyers are looking for the best quality Timex for their money--they would never seriously consider buying a Rolex--too damn high! Another thing: the folks who want and insist on having "the genuine article" would never seriously consider buying a clone. Two sets of consumers-two different markets.
JJ

They'd buy a fake Rolex from a street vendor for $10 though!

[TUBAD83]

To borrow KJV's analogy: the Timex buyers are looking for the best quality Timex for their money--they would never seriously consider buying a Rolex--too damn high! Another thing: the folks who want and insist on having "the genuine article" would never seriously consider buying a clone. Two sets of consumers-two different markets.
JJ

They'd buy a fake Rolex from a street vendor for $10 though!

Thats another class of consumer--called Dumb A$$e$--and they RICHLY deserve it WHEN (not IF) those fakes stop working, the fake stones fall out, and the tacky fake gold plate rubs off on their wrists. Have NO sympathy for them EVER.

JJ

[Wyvern]

Timex buyers are looking for the best quality Timex for their money--they would never seriously consider buying a Rolex--too damn high! Another thing: the folks who want and insist on having "the genuine article" would never seriously consider buying a clone. Two sets of consumers-two different markets.

I do not think the analogy is very sound as a Rolex costs about 100 times the amount of a Timex - and later is not a clone, those fake Rolex are!

Most people that buy a Rolex do so purely as a status symbol to show how wealthy the are - rather like driving a Porsche, or a Rolls Royce. People buy quality professional tubas because they are dedicated to their music making and want the best tool to do the job, be it as a professional, or dedicated hobbist. Most of the buyers of professional tubas will not be particularly wealthy and had to save hard to purchase. They rely on the sale of their old tuba to raise money towards the new tuba. If the re-sell value of their old tuba is depreciated, many will not be able to afford that professional tuba they aspire and sales will suffer.

Many buyers of clones will also want to up-grade to a quality tuba when they have the money - they are not a separate set of consumers.

I am just saying that if clone buyers bought a quality used tuba (such as geniune 186) like they did previously, they would keep the market moving. But we need to accept that it is human nature to always want new and people love a bargain.

Jonathan "who had to sell three old tubas to be able to afford his handmade goldbrass Neptune"

[Tubaryan12]

I do not think the analogy is very sound as a Rolex costs about 100 times the amount of a Timex - and later is not a clone, those fake Rolex are!

People buy quality professional tubas because they are dedicated to their music making and want the best tool to do the job, be it as a professional, or dedicated hobbist. Most of the buyers of professional tubas will not be particularly wealthy and had to save hard to purchase. They rely on the sale of their old tuba to raise money towards the new tuba. If the re-sell value of their old tuba is depreciated, many will not be able to afford that professional tuba they aspire and sales will suffer.

I think most people buy professional quality anything mainly because of it's perceived value, not necessarily because it will help them get the job done any better than they could with a lesser known brand. There are more amateur tuba players on this board than pros, and we know that with our busy lives, we are not putting in the work that most of the horns we own deserve. Most of us don't have the time to test clones to see how they stack up against the major brands....not to mention, people simply like saying they own "____________" brand horn. How many of us are playing on clone mouthpieces?

Tubaryan "yes, I'm guilty too......and I own a Timex and a fake Rolex" 12

[Tubaryan12]

Thats another class of consumer--called Dumb A$$e$--and they RICHLY deserve it WHEN (not IF) those fakes stop working, the fake stones fall out, and the tacky fake gold plate rubs off on their wrists. Have NO sympathy for them EVER.
JJ

You would be shocked by the quality of fakes these days. Full automatic movements, mother of pearl faces, stanless steel cases and bracelets, etc.

Tubayan "my Timex has been replaced because of failure, my fake Rolex has not" 12

[toobagrowl]

Lots of great posts here!

The folks who buy these clones are looking for the best tuba available in their price range. ---they are not looking to spend 4K (which is about the average price of a used name brand axe in good condition on ebay and craigslist) or more and they are certainly NOT looking to spend 6k or more for a new name brand tuba. To borrow KJV's analogy: the Timex buyers are looking for the best quality Timex for their money--they would never seriously consider buying a Rolex--too damn high! Another thing: the folks who want and insist on having "the genuine article" would never seriously consider buying a clone. Two sets of consumers-two different markets.

JJ

What you should REALLY be saying is: "I want a NEW tuba for a USED tuba price" The Chinese clones offer that. I myself have been tempted to buy a Chinese clone tuba. But then I realize where they are made and what they are doing to the real tuba manufacturers and it kinda makes me cringe I'd much rather buy a St. Pete, Cerveny or even a Weril (whos new prices are not much higher than the new Chinese tubas) any day before buying any Chinese-made tuba. How will these "clones" hold up and play in 30 or 50 years? You also have the option to spend roughly the same amount (3K or less) on used quality American or European horns - especially BBb and Eb tubas.

[Levaix]

Just a note... A lot of people are saying they would rather (from a moral standpoint) buy a used American or German horn rather than a new Chinese horn. How exactly does buying a used horn help tuba companies any more than buying a Chinese one? They're still getting zero money out of it.

I hope that's a fair question

[MartyNeilan]

As far as the moral dilemma:
My current tuba was made by the Germans around WWI. They never made any bad judgements during that time period, did they?

Noting that the craftsmen who built that instrument probably had ZERO political influence, the same as the modern day craftsmen in China.)

Marty "who can't afford a genuine Timex"

[TUBAD83]

Lots of great posts here!

What you should REALLY be saying is: "I want a NEW tuba for a USED tuba price" The Chinese clones offer that. I myself have been tempted to buy a Chinese clone tuba. But then I realize where they are made and what they are doing to the real tuba manufacturers and it kinda makes me cringe I'd much rather buy a St. Pete, Cerveny or even a Weril (whos new prices are not much higher than the new Chinese tubas) any day before buying any Chinese-made tuba. How will these "clones" hold up and play in 30 or 50 years? You also have the option to spend roughly the same amount (3K or less) on used quality American or European horns - especially BBb and Eb tubas.

Actually when I had decided to look for a tuba to buy, I had a budget of 2,000 dollars...period--not one cent more. My criteria: 4 rotary valves, built well enough that it did not fall apart when I handled it, played in tune, had a finish where it wouldn't rub off on my hands or come off over time. IF there was a used Yamaha, King, Conn, Hirsbrunner, Miraphone, or MW available that was in good condition and not a "fixer upper" and was within my budget, of course I would have purchased it. The Chinese clone I purchased met my criteria and my budget. I never worry about resale value since I did not invest that much in the first place. Same with my current Chinese clone--it plays great, looks great, and very happy with it...money very well spent.

The "3K or less...used quality American or European horns" sold on ebay and craigslist are few and far between to begin with; usually look like they have seen better decades, and usually will require some kind of repair work done after you buy it (which means you may blow your budget depending how much work that needs to be done).

Once again, in my view, consumers who want the name brand tubas and willing to pay to get them are not going to buy these clones--the clone market allows those, who otherwise could never afford a decent quality tuba, the opportunity to get one.

As for the moral question--I would submit the following: all those who have an issue with Chinese goods should remove all Chinese-made goods from their homes...starting with the device they are using to read this post. Good luck with that.

JJ

[Donn]

As for the moral question--I would submit the following: all those who have an issue with Chinese goods should remove all Chinese-made goods from their homes...starting with the device they are using to read this post. Good luck with that.

Goodness yes - people who want to raise any moral question should certainly be made aware of how futile that is!

[TexTuba]

For all of the folks who live in America:

Do you know how much we OWE the Chinese?! Buy their horns and maybe it'll help that debt!

[TexTuba]

How will these "clones" hold up and play in 30 or 50 years?

I dunno. How will you and your playing hold up in 30 or 50 years?

[prototypedenNIS]

Just a note... A lot of people are saying they would rather (from a moral standpoint) buy a used American or German horn rather than a new Chinese horn. How exactly does buying a used horn help tuba companies any more than buying a Chinese one? They're still getting zero money out of it.

I hope that's a fair question

It's a fair question.
The clone manufacture drives down the value of a quality horn. Instead of the seller getting 1/2 of what he paid, he gets 1/4. That's a substantial loss and it puts that person in a position where they have to spend less on whatever they needed the money for anyway. So instead of getting a good quality instrument with the money, he has to get something cheaper whether that's used or another ISO.
It could also be the difference of putting food on the table or Chinese made Ramen noodles.

So China and co. put higher priced products out of reach even when they're not actually making the direct sale while reaping the benefits of indirect sales.

People choosing used gear in greater numbers can help drive the demand based value higher so that quality used instruments can properly hold their value. People can't buy what they can't afford but if people can't get a good price, they won't sell until they're desperate. Getting a used horn can be ridiculously cheap, if you can find one.

You can sell 1 quality horn to get a new cheap one (if you're lucky).
You could sell a van load of cheap horns and not be able to afford a new quality one.