BBb or CC?

[curtisthornton]

I know that here in the states most professionals play on CC tubas but in Europe. I'm torn between buying a really good BBb horn or a CC for my first tuba.

Just a little background information about myself, I'm a tuba performance major at a division II school in my sophomore year.

I've asked James Jenkins (principle tuba Jacksonville symphony orchestra) and he said the key thing is preference from player to player but there isn't a large market for quality BBb horns in the U.S. since everyone uses a CC.

I also asked my teacher and he said the same thing, but he is a former student of James Jenkins. He plays a Meinl-Weston 2155.

Any advice is highly appreciated

Thanks,

CT

[tubaforce]

The great Dr.John Richards held down the principal chair of the Oregon Symphony for YEARS on BBb and EEb Tubas! Are you pimarily an Orchestra player? If so, You'll need a Large (5/4,6/4) Contrabass, and a Basstuba to go with it! If you are an "ALL AROUND" player, then get a 186 style axe in BBb or CC! Unfortunately, there's a lot of snobbery re CC vs BBb, and you have only to search lightly here to find discussion after discussion on this issue! Ultimately the choice will be up to you and your wallet.

Good luck!
Al.

[Bob Kolada]

The Miraphone 1291 Bb is a fantastic horn! I like the 191 as well and even slightly prefer the sound over the 1291, but I find pistons easier to play on than rotaries especially on a big horn. Gene Pokorny has apparently been playing a lot of Bb, a MW piston Fafner, lately. I played with a 1291 Bb owner who said Gene liked that horn as well during his lessons with him.

I'm more of a small tuba guy, but I would strongly prefer a big and small tuba, a big tuba, or a small tuba over a mid sized one. Mid sized tubas don't have the clarity of small tubas or the sound of big ones (big and small -generally- meaning contrabass and bass respectively) that I want.

I think there are several advantages and few disadvantages for a Bb over a similar C-
-Intonation- More Bb's seem to have a good 5th partial as well as fewer other weird things some C's seem to have.
-Sound- The whole reason to play a big tuba is for the sound. A lot of C's seem kinda tubby to me while similar sized Bb's seem to have a fuller, fatter sound. A quote on here years ago comes to mind-

It seems silly to me to shun a horn for it's "BBb ness" when what you are trying to achieve is a bigger more BBb-like sound.

-Crossover- Like it, admit it,... or not it is helpful to play the same pitch when playing the same song on different instruments. The big example is sousaphone. Lots of bands play common marching marches and if you're going to play the same song on different horns it's nice to have 1 problem out of the way (intonation differences will still be there). When I play mostly Bb I also find euphonium and trombone easier to play as I'm still thinking in Bb.

The big disadvantage I find in some Bb's that most C's don't have is the 2 notes right above the 2nd partial. Some Bb's get really blatty there to the point of where on some of them I can't do anything else. I've played few C's that have that problem.
I do also think that if one is going for a small contrabass to avoid having to play a bass in the low valve register that a small C probably makes more sense- closer to the sound of a bass, avoiding the above issue,...

[SousaSaver]

Here is some excellent advice that I will give you for free.

Listen to everyone...and no one.

Find what you like and what you can reasonably afford and play that. Do the majority of professional players play CC? Yes, but that really doesn't matter.

If you sound great and can play well, it doesn't matter what key your horn is in. Music is such a subjective art. Many people might love a Miraphone 186. You might hate it and prefer a Meinl Weston 2155 or a Conn 56J.

The best advice I ever received was try as many horns as you can, buy the one you like the most and enjoy playing. YOU must enjoy playing your instrument.

Just my opinion of course.

[bort]

I vote for CC. No real reason, but for me my brain makes much sense of the key of C than the key of Bb.

[Homerun]

I second BR on this topic.

[swillafew]

I stuck with BBb and swam against the current. I still do it because I play trombone. Were I a sophomore again and needed an instrument, I would grab one of the Piggy C's you see in the used market.

[hokkmike]

I like BRSousa's thinking.....

Personally, I have always played Eb and BBb, preferring the latter - but I don't have enough acumen to engage in this debate directly.

[windshieldbug]

Which ever horn sounds best on you, but that includes mouthpieces.

Remember that this business is mostly sound and only a little visual.

[swillafew]

Afterthoughts: After reading the comment about play whatever sounds best on you, I want to add: Play some F and Eb tubas. If you sound good, nobody will care what key the horn is.
bonus:
My college adviser told every student, "none of you plays enough piano, not even the piano majors". Many years later it still rings true.

[Mark]

My college adviser told every student, "none of you plays enough piano, not even the piano majors". Many years later it still rings true.

Gerry Schwarz recently said that "it's hard to play piano on the trumpet".

[Rick Denney]

A successful performer will constantly search for the instrument that feeds his inner voice, and successful performers develop that voice with little input from the likes of Tubenet posters.

Those who play Bb fall into one of several categories:

1. Doesn't care but found a Bb that was particularly suited to his inner voice.
2. Learned Bb in school and doesn't want to learn new fingerings.
3. Learned on Bb and never felt the need to change sufficient to justify the extra cost.
4. Plays Bb for works particularly well-suited to Bb, such as the Shostakovich 5.
5. Plays in a German orchestra.
6. Plays a sousaphone.

A performance major should never be in category 2, and probably not in category 3. There are tops pros in categories 1, 4, and 5, and solid working pros in category 3. Category 1 is quite a small group, and its members must be prepared to prove their qualifications for membership in that category (not easy in college, but not impossible). Category 4 is a growing category, but by definition its members also routinely use C tubas. Categories 5 and 6 know who they are.

Rick "who falls in Category 3" Denney

[fairweathertuba]

The Miraphone 1291 Vs 1292 battle is easily won by the 1291, the 1291 has great intonation, the 1292 not as good. The 1291 is easy to hold and pull slides (not that you need to) the 1292 seems to be a cut of the 1291 and you can't even reach the slides for pulling, and you do need to., the list goes on and on for these two. Tone, 1291 better, response, 1291 better etc.

It's probably happened plenty of times over the years, manufacturers design a BBb tuba and rather, haphazardly cut it down to a CC for a select market. The truly valuable instrument being the BBb because it's more popular overall, and the CC a designer instrument, that's, in many cases really not designend so well.

[fairweathertuba]

I stuck with BBb and swam against the current. I still do it because I play trombone. Were I a sophomore again and needed an instrument, I would grab one of the Piggy C's you see in the used market.

I've always found the intonation a little rough on these and the valves never seem quite right either, they sort of "puff puff" when pushed down, and they also feel slow, not good!

[sloan]

mu. Unask the question.

This question is usually a stalking horse for a deeper, more fundamental, question.

A serious performer should be able to play on tubas in any and all keys, if for no other reason than because they should be able to play both a contrabass and a bass.

If you are going to play only ONE instrument - then it hardly matters. Find a tuba that works for you and play it. Here - there might be a slight plus for BBb if you are also likely to be pressed into service carrying a Sousaphone - but other than that, it hardly matters. The differences between different brands, different models, and different individual instances of some models are much greater than the differences between the entire distribution of CC and BBb tubas.

In sheer numbers, the vast majority of players considering this question are asking "should I *switch* from BBb to CC - to make my college instructor happy". I'll bet that *most* college instructors are more interested in having the student learn to play on anything - and perhaps secondarily interested in the specific key (or manufacturer, or model). Of course, there may be exceptions...

Among posters here, I'd wager that *most* people pushing BBb fall into the category "that's all I know", and *most* people pushing CC fall into the category "all the great players in my immediate experience play CC, so I have to, too". [note the "*most*" qualifiers - don't get your panties in a bunch if you have legitimate arguments for one or the other - just accept my congratulations that you are in the elite minority]

I play BBb and Eb - because I'm a rank amateur who is certainly not limited by any of the 6 tubas I own, and I acquired those instruments through the usual accidents of history. But, you know - if a wonderful CC (or F) fell into my hands, I can't imagine that it would take me more than 3 months to be as adequate a player on that horn as any of the ones I have now. When I returned to playing after 25 years off, I foolishly *thought* that it mattered that my fingers still had BBb burned into them. But, you know - it didn't really matter.
BBb makes it easier for me to pick up a borrowed Sousaphone (I don't...yet...own one) - but other than that I can't see any advantage nor disadvantage to BBb vs CC. When it came time to add a bass tuba, similar considerations led me to start with Eb instead of F. And again - I don't think it mattered one whit.

To calibrate...I suspect that I have only recently acquired the ability to tell if the contrabass I'm playing is in BBb or CC without looking carefully at the wrap. I'll bet that *most* players asking the BBb or CC question are in the same boat. Certainly audiences are.

Bottom line: the question "BBb or CC" is not about the tubas - it's about the players. If the pitch of the horn matters to you - I suggest that you need to look inward and ask what it is about *you* that makes that true.

[bort]

I still vote for CC, especially if you're a performance major. I was *not* a music major, but have still seen people asking/being told to pick CC over BBb, and awkward conversations that start with "Well, I play BBb because..."

It's dumb because it doesn't matter. But if you do have a teacher/director/conductor who know and cares, it could really be annoying to have to justify yourself or put that added target on your back if you're at a "CC school". Now, if you're a badass player who can really play the snot out of it, no one in their right mind will care BBb or CC. But if you're like most college kids and have raw talent to develop and are there to learn, it might be just as easy to go with the flow in this case and refine your skill on a CC.

But really in the end, do what you want. There are good tubas in every key. You'll still sound like you, it's just that different notes will come out of the bell when you mash down your fingers.

[fairweathertuba]

My college adviser told every student, "none of you plays enough piano, not even the piano majors". Many years later it still rings true.

Gerry Schwarz recently said that "it's hard to play piano on the trumpet".

Reminds me of the Joke, "How do you get a trumpet player to play quieter?"


Answer, "Take away his trumpet"

[tubaforce]

Hello again! No matter what you end up choosing, at least you'll have your own axe! I was issued a Yamaha 641 at College, and though it was light years ahead of the Couenon 3/4 sized trash can I suffered with in High School, it was sorely lacking compared to my section mate's Amati even! I never did understand why Yamaha cloned that design in the 1st. place, or what would posess one to buy it, or the Chinese clone of it today! You have so many good Tubas you can choose from, limited only by your budget. Use the checklist a wise poster provided, and try to speak with students at your School of choice, or, even better, your potential teacher! Good luck!
Al

[J.c. Sherman]

3 words: Listen to James.

You'll be hard pressed to find a better player on this earth than James Jenkins. Every summer I have the immense joy of sharing a stage with him, and he plays BBb with the delicacy and perfection of the finest of us. He is right on the money on this question.

Yes, I always say if you're going to play one horn, a big Eb isn't a bad choice either. I think Pigs and 186s make great all around horns, so do 2145s, PT4s, HP2Ps, and a swath of other makes. Myself, I would not feel as adroit and accrobatic on a BBb as an only horn. But I'm not James... he can do it and sound amazing. He's proof that you should get what you sound good on, what makes you comfortable, and be willing to spend real money on a very good instrument which lets you express yourself as you wish and are bing trained to do.

Play your tuba... find it and play it. You are much more important than the horn.

J.c.S. (who REALLY likes the B&S PT2P/VMI 3301/3302 BBbs)

[tclements]

Play a CC. There are a few guys that play BBb, Mr Jenkins being one GREAT example. But there is a reason that 99.9% of all American pros (and it is invading Europe as well) play CC. I have my own reasons, that I'll be happy to discuss privately (email me), but look at the great orchestral players, with rare exceptions, they play CC. I don't know this definitively, but I believe all the guys in the service bands as well, are playing CC's now. Perhaps our Armed Services professionals can chime in here. There is a common misconception that BBb is for band, CC for orchestra. The argument just does not hold water. WHATEVER you play, you should consider 5 valves and SOME kind of tuning jigger, either in the 2nd slide or the main slide. Good luck!