Mystery Valve Set

[Dan Schultz]

What's the piston diameter? The Ferree's catalog is a pretty good reference.

[Ben]

Could it be an old King? Some of the bits look similar to what was on my Gnagey King body... Of course those parts could have come from anywhere.

Edit: I take it back... After looking at the pics on a computer and not my phone, I don't know what it is

[EdFirth]

I don't know the model number but I think the valveset is from a Reynolds, the one with the really long detatchable bell. Some of them had a spring loaded tuner on the fist valve slide.And I think they were .689 bore. Ed

[bort]

Looks a lot like an O-99 to me. I only had a 3-valve version, but everything so far looks like Olds.

Here's a picture of the Olds I used to have.

rsz_img_0351.jpg

[tbn.al]

It looks a lot like my O-99 except for the two anomilies you mentioned and the fact that the O-99 bore is only .656, I believe. This would point me toward the Reynolds.

[cjk]

I agree with EdFirth. Reynolds TB-12 or the Olds equivalent of that. I am assuming that there was an Olds equivalent of a TB-12, I don't know for sure. Here's a pic of the Reynolds version:



This site might actually have some better pictures than the one I linked: http://contemporacorner.com/other/lowbrass/" target="_blank

[tbn.al]

More Reynolds pics.

http://contemporacorner.com/wp-content/ ... 019534.jpg" target="_blank

[cjk]

and another, http://www.tubaexchange.com/historic_co ... ium%29.jpg" target="_blank

[tbn.al]

I noticed in looking at the pics that the smaller Reynolds, TB-10, has the double crook on the 3rd valve tubing just like it's sibling the O-99. Anybody have any idea why the TB-12,13,14 has the long sigle crook 3rd valve tube? I also noticed that the TBD which I think is the Reynolds predessor of the TB-12 series also has a single crook. I suspect then that the lineage of the TB-12 goes back to before the Olds/Reynolds merger, but I don't know enough about the history to do more than wonder. Anybody know? That single crook sure looks better to me.

[cjk]

I noticed in looking at the pics that the smaller Reynolds, TB-10, has the double crook on the 3rd valve tubing just like it's sibling the O-99. Anybody have any idea why the TB-12,13,14 has the long sigle crook 3rd valve tube? I also noticed that the TBD which I think is the Reynolds predessor of the TB-12 series also has a single crook. I suspect then that the lineage of the TB-12 goes back to before the Olds/Reynolds merger, but I don't know enough about the history to do more than wonder. Anybody know? That single crook sure looks better to me.

The small Olds / Reynolds tuba (0-99 or TB-10) is really an "pre-merger" Olds tuba.

The larger Olds / Reynolds tuba (TB-12) is really a "pre-merger" Reynolds tuba.

[tbn.al]

Would one then assume that F.A. Reynolds brought the O-99 design with him when he left Reynolds and joined Olds? These horns are reputed to be virtually identical but I can't believe that Reynolds would be able to skirt the patents, unless he owned them personally. I'd like to know which design came first as I have always assumed they happend simultaneously.

[cjk]

Would one then assume that F.A. Reynolds brought the O-99 design with him when he left Reynolds and joined Olds? These horns are reputed to be virtually identical but I can't believe that Reynolds would be able to skirt the patents, unless he owned them personally. I'd like to know which design came first as I have always assumed they happend simultaneously.

Olds and Reynolds were part of the same company at that time.

The Contempora corner website has a collection of catalogs, not every single year, but enough to make some conclusions.
http://contemporacorner.com/archives/catalogs/" target="_blank

The TB-10 doesn't show up in catalogs until around 1970.

The larger "King 2341 sized" Reynolds tuba is either called the model 170 (1940s through 1960something) or TB-11 through 14. The Reynolds Model 170 (or TB-11 though 14, depending on the bell and number of valves, first called TB-something in the 1966 catalog) is in every catalog from 1949 through 1970, but not after.

In the company history on that site, it appears that all Reynolds and Olds production was combined into the Olds factory in 1970-1971. --> http://contemporacorner.com/company/history/" target="_blank

In an earlier post, I was wondering if there was a larger Olds tuba. Now, I don't think that there was.

Is there really something patentable about either instrument? The larger Reynolds tuba bears a striking resemblance to a King 1241 or 2341. F. A. Reynolds worked for H. N. White previously. F. A. Reynolds didn't hold any tuba patents.

I'm really interested in folks who think that tuba designs have been patented to go find a patent for one.
Really, I'm serious.

[tbn.al]

The reason I'm asking is because I don't know. What I can find out doesn't seem to fit together.

1. Reynolds broke away from HN White and started his own company in 1936.
2. He retired and sold the company in 1946.
3. He was lured out of retirement by Olds in 1948.
4. The O-99 shows up in 1960??? ostensibly designed by Kanstul and Reynolds????
5. Reynolds and Olds merged in 1979.

Question? Was the almost identical to the O-99, Reynolds TB-10, already in existence before the merger in 1979. This doesn't seem plausible to me but then again if I knew I wouldn't be asking. I really think it was and somewhere in the back of my mind I believe I understood at one time that it was the predesessor of the O-99. I don't have any catalogues to check, so I'm asking what if any is the connection between the two designs?

[cjk]

1964: The assets of the F.A. Reynolds Co. were purchased by Maurice Berlin and the Chicago Musical Instrument (CMI) company; at the time, CMI was one of the largest musical instrument distributors in the world and owned F.E. Olds, Lowrey Organs, Gibson Guitars and several other firms.

As the new owners of F.A. Reynolds, one of CMI’s first actions was to pack up and move the company from its long-time plant in Cleveland to a new manufacturing facility in Abilene, Texas (August). With the move to Texas, CMI began the merger of F.A. Reynolds’ and F.E. Olds’ operations. Production for both companies during 1964-1970 was split between the Olds’ plant in Fullerton (350 South Raymond Avenue, Fullerton, CA) and the new Reynolds factory in Abilene (5520 North First Street, Abilene, TX). The trumpet, cornet, horn (except nickel-silver models) and trombone lines for both companies were made at the Olds plant in Fullerton, while the other brasses (plus nickel silver horns) for both companies were made at the Reynolds plant in Abilene. Some low brass parts, particularly tuba and sousaphone bells, were produced in Fullerton and then shipped to Texas for assembly with other parts being made in Abilene.

Olds and Reynolds were apart of the same company as early as 1964.

I don't think the TB-10 is the predecessor of the 0-99. I think the opposite is true. The TB-10 showed up around 1970. Around 1970, the Abilene Texas plant was sold to Conn and all production was moved to Fullerton. Therefore, all the tubas being made by Olds and Reynolds were being made in the Olds factory. The TB-10 is an Olds 0-99 made to look like a Reynolds.

[Dan Schultz]

Isn't this your valve section? I mean the one on the BIG horn. These are both Reynolds horns.

[Dave Hayami]

Hello,
The only difference that I can see is that the Reynolds braces that I have seen on both my horns, (Tuba and Sousaphone) and the pictures posted all have 8 sided feet. The braces posted with the valve section in question has rounded feet like an Olds. The single loop 3rd valve circuit reminds me of the Conn 2J(which really is a CC Olds with a bigger flared bell).
JMHO
dave hayami

[Dan Schultz]

Isn't this your valve section? I mean the one on the BIG horn. These are both Reynolds horns.

Yes, that is it.... Any close-up photos of this tuba model would be appreciated. I am not looking for comparisons, just the original. ....

Sorry... that is the only image I have. This was a customer's horn and I only took this single image to point out the size difference in these two Reynolds tubas. The 4V version of the 0-099 is on the right and the BIG one on the left is the TB-09 (I think).

[cjk]

Would one then assume that F.A. Reynolds brought the O-99 design with him when he left Reynolds and joined Olds? These horns are reputed to be virtually identical but I can't believe that Reynolds would be able to skirt the patents, unless he owned them personally. I'd like to know which design came first as I have always assumed they happend simultaneously.

It is just like Chinese *cloning* -- No harm, no foul. Right? Who is going to enforce the law if it is "good for competition" for us to steal (or, ahem, clone) designs?

Exactly what law is being broken here?

There are no patents on Reynolds or Olds tuba designs. I have actually searched the US patent database. The TB-10 was not produced until both Olds and Reynolds were part of the same company. Both the 0-99 and TB-10 came out of the same factory in Fullerton California. One wasn't a copy of the other. They are the same instrument with different ornamentation.

With regards to "cloned" tubas, if I had the means and desire, I could copy a Kanstul F tuba. As long as I did not copy Mr Kanstul's special rotor which he DOES have a patent for, I understand that it would be legal. People might not like it and I might not sell any, but I do believe it would be legal.

"Cloned" tubas are no more illegal or immoral than generic drugs. Everybody likes to save a ton of money at the pharmacist's counter, don't we?