HS Concert band students required to join Marching Band too

[sailn2ba]

When I went to high school, we had the Fall/Spring marching/concert/pep band cycle referred to above. . . and it was fun.
Our oldest daughter (tuba) had to drop band in senior year because she couldn't do band and honors biology too. She took a lot of grief for that, but, years later, there's no doubt she did the right thing.
Our 2nd daughter (trombone) dropped band after sophomore year for similar reasons. Our son dropped the trumpet after 8th grade.
IMO, modern HS bands with elaborate drills and competitions require serious commitment for insufficient value to the student. . . and music's not fun anymore.

[Tubaryan12]

Disinterested kids being strong-armed into hours of after-school practice are exactly what a marching band program needs.

The problem with most kids today is that they do not understand the basic concept of sometimes, you have to do things you don't want to to get to do the things you do want to do. If you haven't learned that lesson by 9th grade at home, it has to be taught sometime. I'm sure that every football player on the field doesn't want to do two a days in the middle of the summer, but guess what....if you want to play football, you better show up for them. I have no problem with this policy. Trust me: I would rather be on the beach in Cancun each morning than sitting in rush hour traffic each day to go to a place where I deal with dangerous chemicals so that some guy's soda or beer doesn't loose its fizz.

There is a direct link between progress as a football player and two-a-day practices. What is the link between being in a marching band and progress as a musician in a concert band?

I could make light and say that marching will increase lung capacity and help with rhythm and memorization and in general put the kids in better physical condition, but why would we want to do any of those things?

The only link between the two is the one I stated: If you want to do one, you have to do the other.

My point isn't that it's the best idea. My comment was purely about people that think they should only have to do the things they want to do. If you want do do concert band, they are saying you have to do marching band. If you want to play on the football team, you have to practice. No difference....at least not until you get to the pros.

The assertion that there must be a problem with the program if kids don't want to march is speculation at best. If I speculated that the kids didn't want to do it simply because they were lazy slackers, that would be wrong as well.

My high school had the opposite problem: Lots of people wanted to be in marching band, but they thought that concert band was boring and if given the opportunity, they would have opted out. We had the same rule: if you are in band, it is for the entire year, not just the part of the year you find enjoyable.

[opus37]

Be honest, 40 students in a band is a pep band, not a marching band. They may march but they just don't have the numbers to do the drills and formations. My high school band (back in the very olden days) was marching in the fall, pep for basketball and hockey in winter and concert all year long. We had 1 hour each day for band during school and during marching season, would work on our routines after school. We has 500 students in the school and had 150 in band. We loved it. It was our social identity. Some also did sports or cheering, but this was our group. We are still friends 40 years later. My son, over 15 years ago, had 2000 students in his school and a 50 person "marching" band. They just marched out at half time and played a song or two. They functioned as a pep band during football. The director needs to decide what type of band he's going to have. If he can't get students, make the best of it.

[Michael Bush]

In my high school thirty years ago that would have been a crazy, backwards policy.

The problem was to get kids to stay in band after marching season was over. Fortunately we went to big marching competitions (usually in Florida) in the Spring, and that was used to keep everyone in band after football was over. You couldn't just march unless you were in the color guard.

[mammoth2ba]

modern HS bands with elaborate drills and competitions require serious commitment for insufficient value to the student. . . and music's not fun anymore.

"Present day" high school bands are an entirely different animal than when I attended school. There was no summer band camp (required or otherwise) and no competitive marching events. We practiced our football halftime marching routines on the lawn outside the band room during regular band class hours during school. Our band marched completely different music and drills about every second week. Not as fancy looking on the field, perhaps, but much more musical variety than the present day bands that play all or parts of the same program at every game all season to sharpen their chances at competitions.

We always had a strong pep band for other sports, and participation was entirely voluntary.

My daughter decided to give up playing euphonium upon entering high school, and given present-day demands of time required for band camps and competitions I couldn't blame her one bit.

She sang in choir instead, and has since had to give that up due to scheduling conflicts with her AP high school courses.

[Rick F]

Marching band and concert band went hand and hand back when I was in HS in the mid '60s. You couldn't do one without doing the other. Marching season was during football season and concert season started only after football season was over. We had 1 hour band class during the school day for 1 hour credit. Tuesday and Thursday after school (3:30 to 5:30 PM) band rehearsal (marching if in that season), and Wednesday night (7PM - 9PM) band practice.

It was similar when my youngest son was in band ~1990 (now age 36). You had marching band for about half the year, then concert season the second half.

[SousaSaver]

Just because some people don't see the benefit of requiring marching band doesn't mean there isn't benefits to young musicians.

Students in junior high and high schools are forced to do all sorts of stuff that they don't want to, most for the benefit of the students.

Marching band, while viewed by some to be too simple to have realistic benefits does help young players with tone production and tuning. Yes I said tuning.

[sloan]

I'm not sure what all the fuss is all about. In most (perhaps not all) high schools, BOTH marching band AND concert band are "extracurricular activities" which require significant time over and above any other academic activity. It's nice to believe (and probably true) that participating in both has educational value - but that's hardly the point. Perhaps not comparable to the football team - but perhaps on a par with the soccer team.

If "The Band" wants to make rule about qualifications for participation - fine.

I do wish, though, that more high schools offered an actual music curriculum - you know, the study of music, available to those who don't happen to be performers.

Marching Band
Concert Band
Jazz Band
Choir
Orchestra

Notice that these are all performing vehicles. They prepare and present entertainment and service to the community. Just like football.

In my day, a serious high school student had to enroll in: English, Social Studies, Mathematics, and Science. Every term, without exception. Most also took a Foreign Language. There was also Physical Education (but there were often alternatives here - Marching Band or Basketball, for example).

After that - there were extracurricular activities. Some of these were "special" because they were allowed to operate during normal school hours. The others all happen outside normal school hours. Some do both.

Show me a complete "Music" curriculum that a high school student can sign up for and attend during normal school hours WITHOUT a commitment to dance for their supper, or hold meetings (rehearsal, etc.) outside school hours, or sell wrapping paper to pay for the concert band trip to a "competition". Then, and only then, will I sympathize with claims about "studying music". Until then, it might be more honest to hold ALL band/orchestra/choir rehearsals *after* school

It mostly boils down to: if you are a musician working for the high school, are you a music teacher...or a band director?

[jmerring]

Rick F (above) and I went to the same HS (a few years apart). I had the privilege and honor of being in both marching and concert band. We had no choice and did not ask for one. The director told me that they always had 76 players in the bands. This was a director who had played under JP Sousa and was a true musician. We had fun with him and learned musicality as well as hard work. My senior year was completed with the band's Superior rating in District and State concert playing, personal superiors in solo and conducting. To cap it off; four months after graduation; several players and I were called back from colleges to march in the Macy's Parade (the first time). 76 players, color guard and twirlers - total of about 90 - 95. In a school of 1200. Statistically, we should have had about 120, but those of us who persevered have memories of a lifetime - because of a band director who cared....statistics be darned!

[Mitch]

Schools do what schools want to do. I'm not really an anti-establishment type, but I've yet to see a student body fully aligned behind the decisions of their school board.

Back in my day, marching band had, for years, counted as meeting a phys.ed. requirement, which was just fine for most of us. We had plenty of other classes we wanted/needed to take and we liked it like that. All of a sudden, my senior year, they changed it out of the blue. No discussion that any of us were aware, we were just handed the announcement one day in class that the following fall that was how it was going to be. Our marching band finished one year at about 180 and started the next about 85.

I was never really into marching band. I managed to stay out of phys. ed. (I was in good physical condition, but had asthma) and conveniently used the same note from my dr. to stay in band without having to participate in marching band. That happened concurrently with the phys. ed. thing - marching band was going to be required for participating in band at any level. There was something that definitely removed the last portion of interest once it was required.

There was one good (well, "fun" might be a better word) thing that came out of the time I spent in marching band. I'll give you a hint: "Well shake it up baby, now...", forever recorded on film.

[Blake Dowling]

I believe the way my high school approached this subject (during my freshman year only due to a director change) was by far a much better solution then simply forcing students to do both. Very simply, if you didn't want to march in the fall it cost you a letter grade in the class (10% of the grade) for that semester. There were a few students who opted to settle for a "B" in their fall semester of band as opposed to marching. While this method was in effect, the marching band numbered between 200 and 280 students ( out of roughly 3000). We had two, two and one half hour rehearsals per week ( Tuesday and Thursday from 3:00 pm from 5:30 pm) and a one week summer camp, consisting of five, eight hour days (for incoming freshman and officers) with the "veteran" members joining in on the second day of camp. It cost a good bit of my time, but it was far from impossible. The vast majority of my band was made up of International Baccalaureate students, many of whom graduated high school with more then thirty college credits. I my self wasn't one of them, though I managed a 3.9 GPA in all honors classes, while maintaining a part time job. So, while I can understand that marching band can be a large commitment, unless it has the same schedule as a drum corps, I can't fathom the requirements to be enough to interfere with school. Just my $0.02

[sailn2ba]

I’m having trouble with all the dimensions of this discussion, but, as you can tell, I’m engaged. Music is good. Marching to music is good and satisfying. Music is an appropriate HS study.
Students today DO have many curriculum options from which they need to choose. Where I depart from justification of highly competitive HS show bands, is when they demand that a student drop music if they are not out there marching for the aggrandizement of the school, the district, and/or the program director. Five, 10, or more, years down the line, the student her(him)self gets no additional benefit from an outsized investment of time and effort. The beneficiaries are the folks who used the students.

[Tubaryan12]

Five, 10, or more, years down the line, the student her(him)self gets no additional benefit from an outsized investment of time and effort. The beneficiaries are the folks who used the students.

Not quite true in all instances. My willingness to march freed up lots of scholarship money when I went to college. I enjoy the benefits of college to this day. No different from the football player that sweats through the two a days for a full ride in my opinion.

[tubaforce]

Wow! What a range of experiences! Tiny Schools with 20 peice bands to schools that pay a "low brass instructor". Marching Band is a mixed bag. It can really suck when people are forced to do the traditional "High Stepping" crap vs the more manageable Corps style marching! I did both as a youth, and my Drum Corps days on a 2-valve Contra did nothing but improve my endurance, flexabilities, and breathing. Wood Winds, with the possible exception of the Saxophone, are a waste of time IMHO, when it comes to marching band! How many Flutes and Clarinets does it take to Balance out 1 Brasswind? LOTS! Just look at the Marching Bands 1/2 time at college football games! And who are the worst pitch offenders? The same Flutes and Clarinets that can't play in tune inside! I'll bet the tune of that Band Director Chages FAST when his/her double reed section boycotts Marching Band! If All the Tuba players said "bye-bye, YOU carry one of those things on YOUR shoulder" , that would put an end to forced Marching! Don't get me wrong, if there's a strong or growing tradition of fielding a marching unit, AND that unit is handled in the right way, it can be a wonderfull bit of PR for a School and it's Music Department. But there's no way students should be BLACKMAILED into Marching! If the Director of that 40 peice band is wise, they'll back off, learn the same pep tunes and fight song they use for Basketball games, and file out onto the field at 1/2 time. Oh, maybe that poor Director has a CONTRACTUAL obligation to perform 1/2time shows? Well then it's high time to change whatever is discouraging kids from marching in the 1st. place! I should think a school that large could come up with a color guard(administrators will balk at paying another teacher) all the uniforms, rifles(oh my god! How terrible! Fake rifles on School property!) marching percussion, portable mallets and timpani, a podium, marching brass instruments(can't buy decent concert Tubas with 4 valves, gotta use those crappy convertable jobs indoors too! Good luck! Al

[Tuba-G Bass]

Maybe I should have provided more information of the Band in question.

From the Tournament of Band site, they were ranked 22nd out of 41
with 87.95 in the Group 2 Open category.
The School is in a pretty affluent suburb area outside of Allentown, PA
Their Football team has won the PIAA State Championship 4A in 2002
and finished second in the state in 2007 [4A is the largest school Athletic classification in PA]
from their website
The Parkland High School "Trojan" Marching Band is a competitive style
marching band that participates in the Tournament of Bands organization.
As a member of TOB Chapter 2, Parkland competes regularly at local and
regional TOB events. The Trojans have been named the Chapter 2 Champions 7 times
and have made 11 appearances in the prestigious TOB Atlantic Coast Championships.
In 2009 Parkland was named the TOB Group 2 Invitational Grand Champions.
Additional performances have included the Chicago Thanksgiving Parade
and most recently the 2009 New York City Veterans Day Parade.

I chatted with a guy who went to my high school and now is the Band Director at
one of the big Bethlehem High Schools, [Freedom, home of the Patriots]
He said they have required Concert band folks to also march for awhile.

I wish Marching Band would have counted as a Phys Ed. credit at my school!

[ken k]

I am guessing that the reason the marching band only had 40 kids in it in a school of 3200 was that they competed in field shows and probably rehearsed every day after school and kids that wanted to do other sports could not do both. They probably had a pretty heavy summer rehearsal schedule as well (I don't know for sure I am just guessing) Unfortunately it is very common in this part of PA with schools which compete in field shows.

Now they are planning to practice during the school day only, will not have the extra competitions, and will only perform at football games and a few parades. So the schedule will be much more realistic and manageable for most HS kids, who are probably involved in many other activites as well. This school is a fairly affluent district and generally speaking has a fine music and arts program. I would guess that over the next few years the band may well grow in size. They said they already have 60 some freshman signed up for band next year. If you get 50 -60 in a class you will have a band over 200 if you can keep them in the band for all four years.

It sounds like a good compromise between getting the kids in marching band so it can represent the school in a positive light, providing a quality product the kids can be proud of and yet not have band take over their life.

this is a similar approach we take at the school I teach at and it works for us.
ken k

[TMurphy]

Wow! What a range of experiences! Tiny Schools with 20 peice bands to schools that pay a "low brass instructor".

I feel a need to clarify this, since I am the one who mentioned being a low brass instructor. I am employed full time by my school district as a fully certified music teacher. I run the instrumental music program in one of our schools, teaching grades 4-8....basically, elementary and middle school combined. One day per week (Monday), I spend at the high school in the district, where I teach tuba, trombone, and euphonium, which was my boss' idea to help build up the high school's low brass section. It doesn't cost the district any extra money to send me there, and if my own program continues to grow the way it has I'll have to stop doing it in a few years.

As for requiring marching band, as I said it my previous post, I understand why the director would do it. Here in our district, there is no such requirement. Marching band is not at all required to participate in the concert band, though they have no trouble getting kids to march, for the most part. The kids who do it, really love it.

[Biggs]

Attention: marching band has nothing to do with music. It has to do with visibility, fun, hanging out with your friends, watching sports, school spirit, goofy entertainment, traditions et al. It might build up your chops (this is a guaranteed side effect for percussionists), but, as was mentioned earlier, practicing is also a great way to build up your chops.

Regarding high school students being busy, Blake is right: being busy is a good thing.

Regarding requiring marching band for all instrumental music students: sometimes, unfortunately, organizations have to use their capabilities and talents in a way that deviates from their main mission in order to have the means to pursue their main mission. For example, the CSO deviates from their main mission of performing Western art ("classical") music by playing holiday pops concerts. This might not be the best use of the talents of the CSO, but ticket sales mandate that the cheesy music stays so that the art music may also stay. A highly visible marching band can serve the same purpose for a district's instrumental music program.

Maybe I'm just jealous of these students' problem; my high school doesn't have a band of ANY sort, much less one that marches.

[tubaforce]

I sure hope kiltie tuba is mistaken about DCI allowing Wood Winds! We did fine without them in Drum Corps when I was a kid, thank you! And I don't remember our arrangements lacking because we didn't have any Flutes or Reeds! Wood Wind players that can't pick up a Bugle, or Beat one of the Bass drums can always try out for the color guard! Maybe the Mayans were right....
Al

[alfredr]

Maybe the Mayans were right? about what? I thought we were talking about Trojans here.

Since most all Native Americans have been rehabilitated and it is no longer acceptable to use terms referring to them as team names or symbols, I think the Greeks should fight to get Trojans and Spartans rehabilitated too. Find another name for your team that can't possibly offend anyone. How about the Fighting Bumblebees?

Boy is this way off topic!

alfredr Sorry about that. (well, somewhat)