Rotory vs Piston

[Arbeegee]

Well, I just read through all 572 Tubenet topics. Really. Hey, I didn't want someone to say "C'mon, we dealt with that already."

Kept the ones that interested me the most. A few re old Mirafones - even the Eb 183 (See "My Precious"). Lots of cleaning, repair, accessory, sheet music and technique ideas. A number of funny and just general interesting reading for later. Someone for petesake please collate a sticky on best mouthpiece.

Amazing how many tubas get stolen. And more so that some of them actually get found.

But there was one topic I found surprising little or maybe even no info on: Rotory vs Piston. From a philosophical and practical point of view. Why one over the other?

Enquiring Tube Noobs just gots ta know.

RBG

[Walter Webb]

Yah, this is a subject-horse that has been beaten to death, but mysteriously, nobody wants to talk about. Pistons are the American Way, patriotic and simple in their everyday maintenance. Rotors are some vesitige of the Austrian Hapsburgs that used to rule the world thru control of the banking system; well-oiled, silent and you're screwed if they go wrong. That's all I know, based upon rumors I heard in line at the supermarket.

Seriously, I have two tubas with piston valves. They work great, but they make clunky noises when they hit their upper stops. In the heat of battle, nobody notices these clanking noises. It's similar to the squeaky noises from finger movements on wound strings on guitars. It's accepted as part of the guitar sound. Pistons go clank thump thump as you press and release. Do rotors make this kind of racket? I have no clue because I have never had a rotary valve tuba. Maybe the owners of these horns will tell us.

[Arbeegee]

Based on the only rotary tuba I ever played, I'd say, yeah, rotory valves make lots of noise. At least on this one old rotory Miraphone I bought. Had it always been that noisy I wondered? In the end I decided the music must effectively drown such things out.

RBG

[jonesbrass]

Based on the only rotary tuba I ever played, I'd say, yeah, rotory valves make lots of noise. At least on this one old rotory Miraphone I bought. Had it always been that noisy I wondered? In the end I decided the music must effectively drown such things out.

RBG

Rotors do not have to be noisy - if they are adjusted properly with the proper lubrication, correct tension in the spring, the right linkages and good stopper material. Rotors, like pistons, will never be totally silenced, but adjustments can be made to minimize the sound they make. Your old Miraphone probably has the old-style linkages on it, or at the very best, the nylon ball-and-socket. Most new rotary horns are using miniball linkages which can significantly reduce noise.

[The Bone Ranger]

Based on the only rotary tuba I ever played, I'd say, yeah, rotory valves make lots of noise.

Based on the one apple I ate, I'd say that all apples have worms in them...

Rotary valves have linkages that connect the paddles to the valve itself. Poorly maintained and lubricated, it will be noisy. So will a car, a motorcycle, a gate etc etc.

There are some generalisations that can be made about the valve types. I will let someone else make them. What I will say is that the valve section is only part of the design of the entire instrument, and not neccesarily the defining factor in how an instrument plays.

Andrew

[Wyvern]

In my experience there are pros and cons of both sort of valves, so which you want depends on your priorities. My observations are;

PISTON VALVES
Pros:
- Very simple to maintain
- Direct action over valve, which some think makes more responsive
- Good for trills and makes slurring easier
- less likely to be damaged by rough handling of tuba (particularly top valves) so better for kids
Cons:
- Must be kept regularly oiled to work well (at least once per week)
- Even when oiled can stick in middle of concert without warning (have seen this in top orchestras)
- On large tubas usually widely spaced with large movement making uncomfortable for those with small hands, or any hand problem
- for me valve guide pins wore out quickly and needed regular replacing

ROTARY VALVES
Pros:
- If in good condition then very reliable (much more than pistons)
- usually just start moving slower if dry, rather than suddenly stick (I have only experienced one rotary valve sticking in the last 5 years, and that was due to dirt getting blown into valve)
- will still work if not oiled for prolonged period (I know player who has not oiled their rotary valves for years and they still work, if rather noisy)
- small movement to operate and ergonomically more comfortable to use
Cons:
- More complicated, so if anything goes wrong likely to require professional help
- does not aid the player so much with articulation, slurs and trills in particular

Both sort of valves can be noisy and unreliable if in poor worn condition.

[Arbeegee]

Based on the one apple I ate, I'd say that all apples have worms in them...

How would you feel about apples if that was the first and only apple you ate? ...And they cost a thousand bucks each.

Good stuff about valves. Old Nellie Belle is currently undergoing a physical and hopefully the minor noise can be attenuated a bit.

RBG

[SousaSaver]

Just a few notes (in my opinion):

-One is not faster than the other
-Both can be quiet, if properly maintained
-The true difference is in overall German vs. American horn design
-Neither requires more maintenance than the human body, so if you get up in the morning, take a shower and brush your teeth, your ready to maintain either type of valve configuration

[MartyNeilan]

Based on the only rotary tuba I ever played, I'd say, yeah, rotory valves make lots of noise. At least on this one old rotory Miraphone I bought. Had it always been that noisy I wondered? In the end I decided the music must effectively drown such things out.

RBG

http://www.wwbw.com/Hetman-14---Bearing ... =455330807

[Dan Schultz]

I like BOTH rotors and pistons. My observations are:

Pistons are more difficult to maintain. (sauerkraut 'whistles' right through rotors!) It seems I have more control over rotors. I can change the mechanical advantage of the levers to get about any 'feel' I want. I can shorten the stroke by moving the pivot point of the linkage up or shortening the paddles or.... I can increase the mechanical advantage by lengthening the paddles. I can loosen or tighten the tension of the springs at will.

What I DO NOT like about most rotary tubas is that they aren't ergonomically-friendly to me. I did say MOST rotary tubas. I only one I like is the 'slant-rotor' Marzan. Others that have the rotor section parallel to the body seem 'unhandy'. I don't understand why the industry has not changed this.

Which one is faster? Dunno. Both systems have a little scientific element called inertia. Both have to be balanced in terms of springs and motion. This being said.... I've not seen either a piston or a rotor that can't be made to challenge my finger speed.

One thing bugs me though.... it seems that rotors should be less expensive since the parts are interchangeable except for a few minor variations on the levers and location of the stop plate screws.

[Rick Denney]

Within my collection of four Bb tubas and two F tubas that get at least occasional use, two are rotary and four have piston valves. The type of the valve is a subtlety compared to the gross effect of different instrument designs. The only conclusion I can come to is to buy the instrument that makes the sound and has the response you like, and enjoy whatever valves it comes with.

Both pistons and rotary valves can be noisy if worn out. Both can be made to be quiet, and both can be kept quiet with proper maintenance. It has been a very long time since a piston valve got stuck on one of my instruments, and that was in freezing conditions. They do require keeping the instrument cleaner on the inside. I don't oil my pistons weekly--I oil them every time I play the instrument. Rotary valves are not designed to receive such frequent maintenance, but neither do they need it. When they do need it, however, it's a much bigger job requiring tools and a bit of repair technique to pull them out for cleaning.

Rick "who owns good instruments with both kinds of valves" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

Finally, I have found no tuba that plays precisely as I would like it to play (response/intonation/resonance) without a ton of work on my part.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=43184

[toobagrowl]

I own a rotary tuba and several piston tubas. Have played many other rotary and piston tubas as well. Basically, the piston horns tend to be slightly more responsive and maybe slightly "easier to play" than rotary horns, imo. But I have heard a wider variety of sounds come from rotary tubas. There is just something about the sound I really enjoy on most 4/4 & 5/4 rotary contrabass tubas. Even the Yamaha 641(?) BBb rotary tuba sounds and plays more Meinl-Weston-ish than it does a typical Yammie. I believe this tuba is based on the M-W 25 BBb.

[williamp]

After returning to a rotory valve horn after two piston valve instruments, I have to say one of the most noticeable differences is not "twirling" the horn all the time to remove water.

[iiipopes]

Lubricants:

Piston - basically two: valve oil and slide grease. Some add a third lighter weight slide grease to "ride throttle" on #1 and such.

Rotor - basically five: 1) main slide grease for set slides; 2) lighter grease for "riding throttle" on #1 and such; 3) linkage oil, like 3-N-1, 4) upper and lower bearing oil, like sewing machine oil; 5) (debated) a regular piston-type valve oil to pour down the leadpipe to clear out gunk that may accumulate down stream, and wash it through to the main water key.

[SousaSaver]

After returning to a rotory valve horn after two piston valve instruments, I have to say one of the most noticeable differences is not "twirling" the horn all the time to remove water.

What horn were you twirling?

[williamp]

Twirling a Willson 3400 EEb and a King 2341 BBb

[sailn2ba]

Well, I'm opinionated on the subject! I like rotaries or pistons, as long as the horn has valves. . . preferably 4 or more. . . Oh, and one or more adjustable slides.
Despite extended discussion of their relative merits, both systems are still being sold into the market on very good instruments. I currently use a 5 RV horn that’s very quick and quiet, and, beside an occasional squirt down the leadpipe (with all-purpose RV oil), I lube once per year.
However, I have liked pistons, although I DID use slide grease on those horns. In any case, I didn’t buy my current horn because of its valves.
And how about condensate valves? . . spring lever vs. push-button? It seems to be more important where that valve is placed. I used to twirl an RV horn, 2 ½ turns to get water out the bell. . . until I found out that 1 twirl backwards let me use the (push-button) valve next to the main slide.

[Dan Schultz]

After returning to a rotory valve horn after two piston valve instruments, I have to say one of the most noticeable differences is not "twirling" the horn all the time to remove water.

That observation WOULD NOT apply to the Marzan 'slant-rotor' tubas. I love these horns but getting the water out is somewhat likened to playing a F horn! The #1 and #2 slides are the worst offenders aside from dumping the main slide with the horn in 'bell down' position.

[toobagrowl]

When I use my 5/4 rotary M-W CC as a BBb, I have to empty both the main tuning and 5th valve slides frequently. This means that I have to flip my tuba both directions. On my front action piston Holton Eb, the 4th valve collects condensation/spit and sometimes needs to be spun around to empty it out. The top action piston Holton Eb just drains everything down, so it's easy to empty.

I'm surprised Bort hasn't commented yet