CC/BBb contrabass "double tuba" by using 5th valve

[toobagrowl]

So I have lately been thinking about the 5th valve on CC tubas which made me think of my own ole 5/4 rotary M-W CC. I had not really played this horn much in the past 2.5 years since I last used it in a small regional semi-pro/glorified civic orchestra; I had just doodled on it a couple times over this period. Then I remembered that M-W had advertised how you could use the 5th valve on their CC tubas (esp. the M-W 32) as a BBb and how it could be a transition for the BBb player switching to CC or vise versa. I had always wondered HOW you could do this to keep the 5th valve depressed.
Wellllll.....I pushed the main tuning and 5th valve slides all the way in and pulled all the other slides a bit. Then I cut some foam tube and stuck it between the 5th valve and brace to keep it depressed/pressed down. I stuck a mouthpiece in the horn and fooled around a bit. Surprisingly, it plays decently as a BBb tuba . The horn settled a tad low in pitch, so I decided to cut the 5th valve slide an inch. I wont go into details because it took me a long time to get it fitting right and looking good -- lots of 'rounding out', cutting, sanding, cleaning, etc. But after I cut the male and female slides, I got the horn to play "right on" with a little wiggle room, intonation-wise. The pitch tendencies as a "fake BBb" are very different than as a CC - ALL open notes are smack dab in tune as a BBb . There are no flat 3rd or 5th partials - F below the staff and D in staff are well in tune. As a CC, the G/Gb bottom line is flat. However, there are a few "funky" notes as a BBb - the Eb's are quite sharp and I have to use some strange fingerings for them if sustained/longer than a typical 8th note (1,2,4 for Eb below staff, 1,2,4 or 4 lipped up for Eb in staff), but overall the pitch is fairly even. I guess those are similar to Alexander fingerings
The response as a BBb is not as good as a CC though, but the sound is pretty much the same. It's pretty weird using the 5th valve as a main tuning slide on top with the regular main tuning slide on bottom. I think after playing it a while getting used to it and settling on a mouthpiece, it will be even better

Is anyone here doing this or have tried this with any of their horns?

[Bob Kolada]

I sometimes (when I actually play the horn!) play my bass trombone as an F/D horn. As for tubas, I don't any with enough valves to actually do this.

[LoyalTubist]

I think you should be happy to play one or the other. The sound is not too terribly different between the C and BBb tubas. It's pointless to me.

[toobagrowl]

^ Sounds like fun, Bob. I was longing for a BBb tuba cuz I have so many memories "back in the day". This is FUN --- now I have a CC/BBb tuba in one!

[toobagrowl]

^ That's why I cut the 5th valve slide an inch. It now plays A=440 just fine

[Wyvern]

My Mel Culbertson Neptune plays as a BBb as well as CC. It comes with a 7/8th tone 5th valve slide for the purpose and has linkage attachment both sides of 5th rotor, so by moving to other side it plays in BBb with the 5th becomes an ascending valve.

Works amazingly well as a BBb with no noticeable detrimental effect to tone, while the ascending 5th allows for alternative fingerings.

I understand Mel Culbertson had the Neptune so fitted to enable it to be used in German orchestral auditions where BBb tuba is demanded. I have only ever used it set-up such to play the BBb bass part in brass bands

[Steve Marcus]

I recall that the Getzen G50/CB50 was promoted with this "convertible" CC/BBb capability, too.

[J.c. Sherman]

Oberlin had an Alexander 163 CC with a crook to BBb. It was wonderful in both keys - perhaps better in BBb (the CCs always struck me as basically cut from the BBb anyway).

I have built a Yamaha 661 CC with a reversable 5th valve for the thumb. It could be tuned with a ladder to a whole tone. It was a very nice BBb, but a better CC... In BBb, once you got to pedal C, you just hit the 5th and voila, a real low C.

J.c.S.

[tclements]

When I was learning CC tuba, I had a Bill Bell model Meinl-Weston (A Division of Getzen) with the 'dual setting' 5th valve slide. I had it set up so I could play the horn in either BBb or CC. If the valve slides were set to play in tune on the CC side, in BBb, the slides were short. If I 'tuned' the BBb, the CC slides were too long. At BEST, it is a poor compromise.

[toobagrowl]

^ I don't think most anyone would try to switch between CC and BBb on the same gig or concert. But it's really no big deal to, say, play the regular CC on one gig and then depress the 5th valve and adjust the slides and play BBb on another gig or just for fun later on if you wish.

[Liberty Mo]

Wasn't the Meinl Weston 2165 marketed as having this capability originally? Or at least the slides were available should someone wish to play it in BBb.

The Getzen CB-50 was the horn I learned the switch from BBb to CC. I continued to play it in BBb in ensembles and lessons and practiced CC fingerings until I was capable enough to switch.

I still think the Getzen is/was a great tool for this and for a college player looking for a multi-ensemble/solo horn at a good price point.

[J.c. Sherman]

Along those lines...

I have probably 20 different fingering systems in my head, from all keys of tubas (some with unusual intonation quirks) to ophicleide, serpent, flute, recorder, bass sax, etc... Mostly, what tells my brain WHICH system to use is triggered by what I'm gripping. For example, the stature of my miraphone 184 told my hand it was an Alex F instrument rather than a CC. I still catch myself defaulting to that (it's easier, strangely, now that I don't have a 5th valve on it!). To play ONE tuba in two different keys... Well, I think my brain just isn't that elastic!

But, I did contemplate snagging a BBb crook for my 163 Alex as I mentioned above to allow an inexpensive mod for low D. Never did it.

J.c.S.

[kingconn]

I have thought about what it would be like to have a whole tone ascending valve as the 5th valve. Sure would make low "C" an "B" easier on BBb tuba or "D" and "Db" on CC tuba.
mike

[Bob Kolada]

Can rotary PT F tubas do the same thing but in F/Eb? I wouldn't want one either way, but it would be kinda cool.

[J.c. Sherman]

Nearly anything can be done...

J.c.S.

[Wyvern]

Can rotary PT F tubas do the same thing but in F/Eb? I wouldn't want one either way, but it would be kinda cool.

I have mused about that using my PT-15 to play the Eb bass part in brass bands. Having experimented holding down the 5th valve, it seems to work, but with of course everything flat. With a shorter 5th valve slide and switch-able rotor attachment as on Neptune I think it would play quite well as an Eb.

But then I thought why bother? A treble clef Eb bass part is easy enough to transpose into bass clef

[Wyvern]

Eb conversion slides can be purchased for B&S F rotary tubas. They had been in the catalogs a while back.

I might see if anyone has got one they would be willing to sell. Would provide a similar facility as the Neptune's two slides. I would then have all 4 tuba keys covered with just 2 tubas

Seriously, on further thought it could be useful when playing the PT-15 with the Police Band marching - easier fingering patterns particularly in the lower register

[Wyvern]

Just as an "FYI," the slides were for the main slide, etc, not a 5th valve converter like the Neptune.

I wonder what that looked like? There is not much room for an extended main tuning slide

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Maybe it's just me, but what practical purpose would a CC/BBb horn serve? I really can't think of a situation where that would be useful.

[Wyvern]

Ever see the 5th slide on a Rudy Meinl CC tuba?

Yes, I know what you mean. However there does not look room to add more than about 8-10 inches that way and I believe about 15 inches (?) would be necessary to get an F into Eb. Have to see if anyone contacts with Eb slide available, or at least posts a picture.

The Neptune CC/BBb set-up with ascending 5th valve seems better way, but I guess I would need to get new 5th valve slide specially fabricated if I wanted such and doubtful if worth the expense