3 valves or 4?

[SousaSaver]

This is an article I put together for young students, parents and non-low brass familiar educators. Please give it a look and see if I missed anything or got anything wrong. I want this information to be as helpful as possible, so I run all of this stuff by you kind folks.

I once learned that there is a way to be 100% correct: just change your opinion when you have discovered you are wrong.

Thanks!

http://sousacentral.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... e-and.html

[DonShirer]

Elementary or middle school bands often don't play music that goes lower than Ab, so 3-valve instruments are fine for their students, but you are right on in recommending 4-valves for high schoolers (or adults playing in community bands). Also, although you are obviously talking about Bb instruments (and should be), a few schools have some Eb tubas sitting around (presumbably for ease in converting trumpet players). As I learned when I was issued a 3-valve Eb in middle and high school (so many years ago), it is imperative that anyone playing an Eb instrument at high school levels (or higher) get a 4-valver to get those notes below B. I found that it does take a bit of experimentation with different tubas to find out the proper 4th slide adjustment so that both the alternate fingerings and the lower notes are both fairly close to being in tune.

[Dan Schultz]

Humpff!

Never saw any more than three valves in grade school, Jr. high school, high school, and a hitch in the Navy that also involved a couple of brass bands in the UK. Of course, that was a period that ended in 1968. ... to some considered to be the Dark Ages!

Today... I would think that middle schoolers should have no use for a fourth valve unless they are being taught how to clean up intonation issues.

Yeah... I have two five valve BBb tubas. I think I've actually had use for that fifth valve maybe two dozen times in the last two years.... and then I can't remember to use it!

[Wyvern]

3-valve Eb's are still commonly used by kids in the UK - that is what I started on.

I stand to be corrected, but have always been told that top valves are better for kids as they are less likely damaged through rough treatment?

[Lee Stofer]

I advocate top-piston instruments for institutional instruments, for a couple of reasons.

First, front-piston instruments almost always lose when going through doorways, etc. A stem does not have to be bent much to put an instrument out of commission, and some of the less-expensive tubas have stems that tend to break pretty easily. The top-piston tuba may be slightly more at risk for a knuckle dent, but that won't put the instrument out of commission 15 minutes before concert time.

Second, if an instrument is ergonomically-suited to a player, height-wise, top pistons are more ergonomically efficient than holding one's hand out in front of them to play front-pistons. I found it very interesting during one of the first Kanstul play-testing sessions involving professional players that one of the first comments was that the players found the top-piston instrument to be much more comfortable than they had expected. The players all said that the top-piston configuration was not an issue to them.

Individual needs and preferences are just that - different for each individual. In my experience, middle schoolers are trying to figure out 3-valve fingerings, and the addition of a 4th valve does them a disservice. Three-valve instruments are normally constructed to compensate to a degree for 2-3, 1-3 and 1-2-3 combinations, and the first band books give them only the 3-valve fingerings. When a student is playing 3-valve fingerings on a 4-valve instrument, which is not constructed to make the 3-valve fingerings in tune, the student will play worse out-of-tune on the 4-valve instrument. The student should master three-valve fingerings before going to a 4-valve instrument.

In a time where school budgets are limited, three-valve instruments should predominate, as they are less expensive to purchase and maintain.

[J.c. Sherman]

I disagreed with much of the article as well.

Being that my main instrument for a very long time was top action, I can say it's ergonomics were wonderful. Secondly, As Lee mentioned, I've seen so many valve stems broken or over-bent (bending the top of the valve!) on front action instruments as to make them look like they're actually a POOR choice for school kids. Rarely do I see stuck valves on a top action unless something REALLY bad has happened; but a doorway and/or a careless child is all it takes to screw up the front action horn.

A top-action horn, unless it's a 3+1, can also be tuned on the fly with the first valve slide. No prohibition there.

As someone who regularly plays 3 valve instruments (not just bass trumpets and whatnot, but tubas), they are perfectly capable of playing in tune. When you think about it, trumpet players do it just fine. Kings BBbs do this particularly well, but I've owned other wonderful 3-bangers (heck, on the Kings, the false tones are kickin' too!). The fourth is nice for low register, and I'm USED to a 4-valver, but it's hardly something to worry about until one is buying a tuba for the long haul - that is to say, they are committed to the instrument and practicing enough that they will be playing well into the foreseeable future. At that point, it's likely they will face low Ebs and lower, so it's warranted. I rarely would recommend that a kid pick up a 3 valve tuba unless they have too-limited access to an instrument for home practice.

5 valves? Well, it's very useful on F and non-comp Eb, a nice - but not necessary - option on CC, and I've never thought to buy or make a 5 valve BBb.

Lastly, if you've played those two Kings pictured, I think the front valve instrument is so bad as to be nearly unplayable and sounds terrible. The other is... more playable but still sounds awful IMHO.

Your mileage may vary, and I know this is an arrogant assessment, but I'm motivated at the moment, for some reason

J.c.S.

[opus37]

I think top action horns are better for starting out. Damage is one thing, but the ergonomics on reaching around the horn with smaller people is to me more important. I think the top action fits more young people. I had a 4 valve rotor in my senior year. I used the 4th valve, but it was at best a nice to have.

[Dan Schultz]

I advocate top-piston instruments for institutional instruments, for a couple of reasons.

First, front-piston instruments almost always lose when going through doorways, etc. A stem does not have to be bent much to put an instrument out of commission, and some of the less-expensive tubas have stems that tend to break pretty easily. ......

Agreed. Top-action tubas (although I don't like playing them) seem to survive the 'middle school years' better than front-action tubas. I think band directors who put rotary and front-action tubas into the hands of beginners have rocks in their heads!

About the 'flimsy' valve stems.... I'm glad they are that way and tend to bend or break before doing serious damage to the pistons. I noticed that the last Marzan BBb I took apart for overhaul had the stems brazed solid into the piston top caps. One of the stems had been bent and the top of the piston was also deformed a bit because the stem did not 'give way'. Granted... Marzans these days are not exactly what I would consider to be a middle school tuba. But.... in the 70's, they were purchased by many school programs.

[J.c. Sherman]

I've found somewhat the opposite to be true:

When large top-action tubas (around here...YBB-201/321/clones/etc.) are knocked over face-down, the slides are bent backwards and valve casings are often deformed. When the deformed casings don't completely "spring back" when the slide tubing is pulled back into position, tools which are used to repair casings have a difficult time clearing the bell for insertion into the casings...

...and yes, I like the fact that $5 - $10 valve stems (rather than $50 - $100 pistons) break off. When a tuba is abused, something is going to get damaged. That's an easy fix.

I will agree that the Yamaha Biga$$ophones do tend to get warped casings in a fall, and that the casing tool sucks to get in, but I've found that once I pull the section (since most are removable) it makes it easier; and I've found that yamaha casings seam to "go back" with greater ease than others. I have no idea why. Could be luck.

J.c.S.

[Dan Schultz]

I've found somewhat the opposite to be true:

When large top-action tubas (around here...YBB-201/321/clones/etc.) are knocked over face-down, the slides are bent backwards and valve casings are often deformed. When the deformed casings don't completely "spring back" when the slide tubing is pulled back into position, tools which are used to repair casings have a difficult time clearing the bell for insertion into the casings...

...and yes, I like the fact that $5 - $10 valve stems (rather than $50 - $100 pistons) break off. When a tuba is abused, something is going to get damaged. That's an easy fix.

I will agree that the Yamaha Biga$$ophones do tend to get warped casings in a fall, and that the casing tool sucks to get in, but I've found that once I pull the section (since most are removable) it makes it easier; and I've found that yamaha casings seam to "go back" with greater ease than others. I have no idea why. Could be luck.

J.c.S.

Yamaha could have circumvented the problem by putting a bigger bell on those horns to begin with!

[J.c. Sherman]

Can't blame you, bloke. But, in my naive early days, I put together a removal kit for the 201/321/621/103 tubas. I'm really fast at it now; I even made a few special tools for it. In my case, I just thought you were supposed to, before learning the economics of it better. Now, I just pull them if I have serious bell/body dent removal (reduces the weight a LOT on my back) and if I can't get the valve mandrel in like I want.

I don't take it off for baths anymore, but it sure made it lighter there too!

J.c.S.

[TUbajohn20J]

In 5th grade we started out playing on Conn 3 valvers, 10J's and 12J's. I was put on a really old 10J but loved that horn. I agree top action tubas are perfect for beginners..easy to handle!! But I could easily play top action tubas professionally. I could play a Besson 981 EEb as a solo/quintet horn, and a Willson 3100 BBb TA-4 for Orchestra/Large ensembles. I actually really like top action horns, to me they are comfortable and easy to handle. Just look at Kenneth Amis, Howard Johnson, Earl McIntyre, John Fletcher, Dave Bargaron, and Patrick Harrild!! They all primarily play on top action horns professionally.

Once we got to middle school, the 6th-8th grade bands still used 3 valve Conn 12J's with a couple 4J's and 5J's (4 valve) here and there. Yes we used the 4th valve if we had it. And in high school the concert band used Conn 12J's and 5J's. The symphonic band used the big, tall, old satin silver Besson New Standard BBb 3 valvers..boy we sounded good on those and we had a rockin tuba section. And the Wind Ensemble used new Silver Yamaha 641 4 rotary valve tubas..and we sounded good on those too!

4 valves are definitely not necessary in middle/high school, but are nice to have. At All State tryouts there would be the "rich" kids from the Dallas area with their brand new 5 valve CC tubas that showed up. I beat all of them on my 3 valve Conn 20J and took it with me to All State that year.

[SousaSaver]

Thanks for the input everybody! I really appreciate it.

Let me address a few points:

- The two Kings pictured in the article are only to describe top vs. front action. I say nothing about the playability of those instruments.

- The crux of the article (although this IS my fault) is 3 valves or 4 and why. I probably did go into front vs. top action too much and in retrospect it was irrelevant to the point at hand.

- Lee's point about early band books only having instructions for 3 valve fingerings is excellent. It has been YEARS since I have seen one and that aspect didn't cross my mind when putting this article together.

- The point many have made about damage in the top action vs. front action horns is also excellent. I didn't think about that when putting this together.

For me, I prefer the front action. I have never been comfortable with top action horns, my body just doesn't respond well. In college (from time to time) I would play a Yamaha YBB321 and a compensating Besson (3+1) of similar size. For me, it was difficult to play because I wasn't comfortable and that is always what I think of when I think top action. I guess it is important to remember my own biases...

I will write a follow up about top vs. front action. Thanks for the input and keep it coming!

[SousaSaver]

http://sousacentral.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... tions.html

FOLLOW UP!

[toobagrowl]

Lastly, if you've played those two Kings pictured, I think the front valve instrument is so bad as to be nearly unplayable and sounds terrible. The other is... more playable but still sounds awful IMHO.

When I started on tuba in middle school (after first starting on percussion and trombone) we had 2 sousaphones and 2 tubas: an old half-lacquered-half-tarnished Conn 20K, an old mostly-raw-brass Continental Colonial, an old 1/2 or small 3/4 Yamaha top action tuba with the bottom bow smushed flat and a top action King 1140 in decent shape. All horns were in BBb and 3 valves. The Continental Colonial souzy was the favorite with the small King and Yamaha tied for 3rd. I was always careful with the horns but some of the other tuba players managed to crease and bend back the rim edge of the bell on the King by putting it on the floor too hard. I took the King home and more or less smacked the bell into shape by hitting the inside of the bell with the handle of a hammer.
The little King isn't the greatest horn, but certainly small, light, playable and easy to get a "good" sound by most middle schoolers. I'd say it's almost perfect for middle school for those reasons. The nicer 4-valvers should wait until high school or later...

[SousaSaver]

I would like to say this -

You can play on three valve Tubas just fine BUT four valve Tubas ARE better for playing in tune.

The reason that Trumpet players can play 1+3 and 1+2+3 valve combination notes in tune is because they can kick out the 3rd slide about an inch to an inch and a half. Now, imagine that same distance on Tuba WITHOUT a fourth valve. That is a long way to play to pull to play those notes in tune.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[J.c. Sherman]

I would like to say this -

You can play on three valve Tubas just fine BUT four valve Tubas ARE better for playing in tune.

The reason that Trumpet players can play 1+3 and 1+2+3 valve combination notes in tune is because they can kick out the 3rd slide about an inch to an inch and a half. Now, imagine that same distance on Tuba WITHOUT a fourth valve. That is a long way to play to pull to play those notes in tune.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

A tuba doesn't play in tune - a tubist does.

And many of us do pull our 1st slides to improve tone; it's not a prohibitive technique. Just like many trumpet players use a trigger only on their 1st slide.

[SousaSaver]

I would like to say this -

You can play on three valve Tubas just fine BUT four valve Tubas ARE better for playing in tune.

The reason that Trumpet players can play 1+3 and 1+2+3 valve combination notes in tune is because they can kick out the 3rd slide about an inch to an inch and a half. Now, imagine that same distance on Tuba WITHOUT a fourth valve. That is a long way to play to pull to play those notes in tune.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

A tuba doesn't play in tune - a tubist does.

And many of us do pull our 1st slides to improve tone; it's not a prohibitive technique. Just like many trumpet players use a trigger only on their 1st slide.

JC -

I think there may have been a mis-communication. I am FOR using the 1st slide. And I agree that Tuba players are the ones who play in tune.

Being VERY specific here, it is much easier to play concert B natural in tune on a BBb Tuba using 2+4 than it is to use 1+2+3.

Thanks to everyone for the honest replies. Good constructive criticism helps keep people honest and sharp (pun intended).

[J.c. Sherman]

Allow me to further clarify - if your 1+3 is in tune, 1+3+2 = 4+2, if your 4th is a perfect 4th. Also, with 2+4, you often don't have access to something quickly to yank 4 or 2 on the fly, but you can often yank 1 further, thereby 1+3+2 > 4+2, or better in tune.

YMMV. If you tune 4 flat for an in-tune 2+4, then you cannot use it alone, but can use 1+3 instead. On some horns, this is a great solution (Alexanders leap to mind), but for many instruments, I've not found this as elegant. But, regardless, you can place the B (on a BBb) where it belongs regardless (at whatever A=xxx standard you are play at, with whatever mouthpiece you choose (though some will make tuning more challenging physically) as long as you're in control.

[SousaSaver]

Allow me to further clarify - if your 1+3 is in tune, 1+3+2 = 4+2, if your 4th is a perfect 4th. Also, with 2+4, you often don't have access to something quickly to yank 4 or 2 on the fly, but you can often yank 1 further, thereby 1+3+2 > 4+2, or better in tune.

YMMV. If you tune 4 flat for an in-tune 2+4, then you cannot use it alone, but can use 1+3 instead. On some horns, this is a great solution (Alexanders leap to mind), but for many instruments, I've not found this as elegant. But, regardless, you can place the B (on a BBb) where it belongs regardless (at whatever A=xxx standard you are play at, with whatever mouthpiece you choose (though some will make tuning more challenging physically) as long as you're in control.

JC -

That's sound advice!