finish durability question

[ppalan]

Hi All,
Quick question:
Which finish would be the more durable and/or less-labor intensive to maintain silver or nickel?

[joh_tuba]

Nickel is bullet proof.

[joh_tuba]

+1 to bloke! Scary how often I agree.

Just to add to what he said:
Silver looks shinier when polished but takes constant attention.. most of us just let it go black. If you want it always looking nice you'll be spending a lot of time with a polishing rag. From a repair perspective you will eventually need SOMETHING soldered if you keep a horn long enough, solder sticks to silver very readily and is a bit of a headache. Once solder has attached itself to silver it has to be buffed off which will make the silver plate thin in those spots. It's possible to spot plate silver but it'll never be more than a few molecules thick and isn't very durable. In other words, repair work on a silver horn is hard to hide without extra time and effort. Eventually a silver plated horn that receives reasonable use will either go ugly or require an overhaul and plate job. Your hands will rub the silver off before the valves wear out. A spot plater could be used to make a horn look good enough to sell if that's a concern.

Nickel isn't nearly so shiny and looks just a little 'cheap' BUT stays nice looking for long periods of time without any special effort. When nickel oxidizes it doesn't turn an ugly black but instead goes 'hazy'. Removing that haze takes a great deal more elbow grease or some yellow compound and a dremel tool. Bad nickel plating can flake off BUT nickel is a much harder metal and is plated much thicker than silver. Also, solder doesn't bond with nickel as readily as silver. It's easy to just wipe solder off of nickel without buffing. There are no nickel spot plating kits to my knowledge so if you move a brace you will have to live with an exposed raw brass spot where the brace used to be BUT in every other way nickel is less of a hassle and will always just look good. Your valves will wear out well before the nickel plating would rub off due to handling.

If the nickel plating is good(questionable since most nickel plated horns are cheap chinese made horns) I would argue that it will hold up for much longer than silver and generally look just fine with very little effort but Bloke's hint regarding lacquer should not be discounted. Lacquer really is far more practical. It requires no special effort to keep looking nice and repair work by a competent repairman can be done in such a way that it's not visible. Generally speaking, a well maintained lacquer horn can stay looking nice much longer than a nickel or silver horn.

In conclusion, it probably doesn't matter.

[Dan Schultz]

There are no nickel spot plating kits to my knowledge

Caswell makes a nickel spot plating kit.

I've seen those kits but have never tried it. From my experience... nickel really needs a copper 'strike coat' to promote good adhesion and will not plate over itself without first putting copper on. My guess that in order to spot plate nickel, one would have to completely remove any residual nickel from an area first... then apply a coat of copper.... then the nickel.

Stripping nickel is a real bear. It requires the use of some horrific acids. It doesn't come off with reverse electrolysis as do some other common plating materials.

Nickel is a real pain to plate and tends to burn on sharp edges and thin parts. Also... matching existing finishes I would think to be next to impossible. I wouldn't count on getting good results working on a beat-up St. Pete!

[iiipopes]

For me, lacquer wears slowly and evenly over time. Also for me, silver plate doesn't wear, only lightly tarnishes, and is easily maintained. I don't have any experience with a gold plated instrument.

However, my body chemistry corrodes nickel. Completely. So I am watching my Miraphone nickel trim very, very carefully. So long as I wipe it dry immediately, no harm done. But if I ever let any perspiration settle on it, it will corrode out over time.

[toobagrowl]

I like the look of silver and nickel. But doesn't nickel usually have a thin film of lacquer over it?

[toobagrowl]

^ So I guess the nickel plate on the slides of my M-W CC is bare w/no lacquer? I am asking because there are places on the nickel slides that are a dull grey and almost looks "pitted". It's like the top layer of shiny lacquer just flaked off in those sections...
Maybe that's what bare nickel looks like after oxidizing?

Edit: Oops.....maybe they are nickel-silver instead of just nickel. Do they lacquer nickel-silver slides?

[toobagrowl]

^ Very interesting. Thought you'd know for sure what type of nickel is used on M-W slides.
Love the dark bluish-grey-silver color of nickel.

[Dean E]

Some people develop a nickel contact allergic reaction, most often from jewelry.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&suge ... 33&bih=647" target="_blank" target="_blank

http://www.webmd.com/allergies/nickel-jewelry-allergy" target="_blank" target="_blank

[toobagrowl]

I've never seen Meinl-Weston slides that are nickel plated...Are you referring to entire removable slide assemblies, or just the slide tubing? The slide tubing on most all modern Meinl-Weston slides is nickel-silver (a copper-nickel-zinc alloy - no plating).

I am talking about the larger female slide tubing and rotor paddles. I guess they are nickel-silver......but I still don't "get" how it tarnishes. Almost looks like a shiny top layer is lightly "chipped" or "eaten" away (best I could do to describe) at contact points, and the metal in those places is a hazy grey color. Is that how nickel-silver "tarnishes"? Raw brass and silverplate don't have that "chipped paint" look like nickel-silver or lacquer do on contact points. Raw brass and silverplate get a smooth, discolored "fingerprinted" look when they tarnish.

[SousaSaver]

I've never seen Meinl-Weston slides that are nickel plated...Are you referring to entire removable slide assemblies, or just the slide tubing? The slide tubing on most all modern Meinl-Weston slides is nickel-silver (a copper-nickel-zinc alloy - no plating).

I am talking about the larger female slide tubing and rotor paddles. I guess they are nickel-silver......but I still don't "get" how it tarnishes. Almost looks like a shiny top layer is lightly "chipped" or "eaten" away (best I could do to describe) at contact points, and the metal in those places is a hazy grey color. Is that how nickel-silver "tarnishes"? Raw brass and silverplate don't have that "chipped paint" look like nickel-silver or lacquer do on contact points. Raw brass and silverplate get a smooth, discolored "fingerprinted" look when they tarnish.

The "chipped paint" look on the outer slides is probably just that: worn off lacquer.

[SousaSaver]

Some people develop a nickel contact allergic reaction, most often from jewelry.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&suge ... 33&bih=647" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

http://www.webmd.com/allergies/nickel-jewelry-allergy" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Oh yeah! I ran into a friend from college at a French Horn show a few weeks ago and he plays a nickel silver Holton French Horn. Over the past few years, he has developed a nickel allergy from playing his horn! He has put protective covers where ever he handles the horn, but he can't do it inside the bell. The answer (although it's still temporary) is to silver plate the inside of the bell. It will eventually wear down, but it will help him out in the mean time.

What an awful thing for a musician to go through...

[toobagrowl]

The "chipped paint" look on the outer slides is probably just that: worn off lacquer.

Well that's what I have been thinking this whole time. I think the nickel-silver slides ARE lacquered along with the rest of the horn...

Here are a couple of examples of what I am talking about:

Notice the 3rd valve slide on this Yammy souzy:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2463wt_753" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Notice the nickel-silver trim (esp. the first valve slide) on this Alex BBb:


http://www.tubaexchange.com/used-produc ... r%20163%20(McCaslin" target="_blank)

[SousaSaver]

The "chipped paint" look on the outer slides is probably just that: worn off lacquer.

Well that's what I have been thinking this whole time. I think the nickel-silver slides ARE lacquered along with the rest of the horn...

Here are a couple of examples of what I am talking about:

Notice the 3rd valve slide on this Yammy souzy:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2463wt_753" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Notice the nickel-silver trim (esp. the first valve slide) on this Alex BBb:


http://www.tubaexchange.com/used-produc ... r%20163%20(McCaslin" target="_blank" target="_blank)

Let me be clear. The OUTER slides will be lacquered. The inner slides won't.

[Dan Schultz]

Some people develop a nickel contact allergic reaction, most often from jewelry.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&suge ... 33&bih=647" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

http://www.webmd.com/allergies/nickel-jewelry-allergy" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Oh yeah! I ran into a friend from college at a French Horn show a few weeks ago and he plays a nickel silver Holton French Horn. Over the past few years, he has developed a nickel allergy from playing his horn! He has put protective covers where ever he handles the horn, but he can't do it inside the bell. The answer (although it's still temporary) is to silver plate the inside of the bell. It will eventually wear down, but it will help him out in the mean time.

What an awful thing for a musician to go through...

I guess the player could easily wear one of those little white gloves for holding inside the bell.

[SousaSaver]

I guess the player could easily wear one of those little white gloves for holding inside the bell.

That is an interesting thought. My father used to tell me "Why do you always have to do things the hard way..."

[toobagrowl]

Let me be clear. The OUTER slides will be lacquered. The inner slides won't.

That is what I have been talking about this whole time and noone seemed to understand!!! So the larger/outer/female slides that are nickel-silver are lacquered as well as the rest of the brass tuba. The nickel-silver tubing isn't bare - it IS lacquered. Just what I thought from the beginning... Good. Now we are clear.