York&Sons Eb "Monster" by BaltimoreBrass "Pictures"!!!!!

[dantetuba]

I do not know exactly what were the modifications made ​​to it, but I can assure you that surprised me when I played with a tuner, but I think a smaller mouthpiece can make the notes more focused.

[Mark E. Chachich]

hello,

I have used a York Monster E flat (4 valves) as my bass tuba since 1978. I use a small mouthpiece (usually a Bach 32, sometimes a Bach 25). For whatever reason, anything larger than a Bach 25 does not work for me (including a Bach 24AW). Also, the low range on this tuba only speaks well when I use a small mouthpiece.

enjoy your tuba,
Mark

[dantetuba]

I think the Dennis Wick Classic 3 will work better to.
Really a large mouthpiece not working well, I'm using a PT-65, but I realize that the notes are not well focused.

Thanks....

[iiipopes]

Does it have a "flat 5th partial" that is common with many other tubas? If so, that could explain the shortening of the 1st valve circuit for the open 4th space G to get in tune.

My strongest hallucinogens are coffee and yoghurt so my imagination fails sorely when it comes to the understanding how the shortening of a valve loop will sharpen an open note.

Klaus

Oh, Hell! You know what I meant: 4th line F is the 5th partial note fingered 1st valve that would tend to flat, and need a push, in the same neighborhood as the open G, which might have to be fingered 1+2 with a slight pull. That's what I get for trying to post while suffering from a combined ear, sinus and eye infection, and being on two different antibiotics at the same time to attack it from different directions, while on pain killers and lack of sleep from not being able to breathe properly. The good news is the antibiotics are working, it did not progress to my bronchials or lungs, and I might actually be able to put in a full day of work tomorrow, and hopefully be able to play my tuba again by the end of the week. Now, where were we....

[iiipopes]

Does it have a "flat 5th partial" that is common with many other tubas? If so, that could explain the shortening of the 1st valve circuit for the open 4th space G to get in tune.

My strongest hallucinogens are coffee and yoghurt so my imagination fails sorely when it comes to the understanding how the shortening of a valve loop will sharpen an open note.

Klaus

Oh, Hell! You know what I meant: 4th line F is the 5th partial note fingered 1st valve that would tend to flat, and need a push, in the same neighborhood as the open G, which might have to be fingered 1+2 with a slight pull. That's what I get for trying to post while suffering from a combined ear, sinus and eye infection, and being on two different antibiotics at the same time to attack it from different directions, while on pain killers and lack of sleep from not being able to breathe properly. The good news is the antibiotics are working, it did not progress to my bronchials or lungs, and I might actually be able to put in a full day of work tomorrow, and hopefully be able to play my tuba again by the end of the week. Now, where were we....

[imperialbari]

Glad the antibionics appear working!

Klaus

[dantetuba]

I talked with Lee Stofer of TubaMeister and he advised me to keep the original three valves and put the 4th valve to larger extent, I believe that 0.689 "is a good measure. By the same reasoning of the measures that the Kanstul is using.

P.S.: Cherish the improvements to Klaus

Dante

[iiipopes]

Glad the antibiotics appear working!
Klaus

Thanks.

Now, regarding adding a 4th valve, this is fine for low Bb, of course. But what about combinations? A nat, Ab, etc., will probably still need pulls to be in tune. If you're going to go through all the trouble to add a 4th valve, then you should consider "flipping" the 1st valve slide as well so that it is taller and easier to manipulate, as well as an extension to the 2nd valve likewise. Otherwise there will be no advantage to getting a lower register without false tones that will not play in tune.

Further, since the OP reports low D and Db are flat, does this extend to the rest of the low register? If it does, intonation may be problematic regardless, and again the 4th valve won't do much good.

I appreciate the pros and cons of going to a larger bore for the 4th valve. Even B&S and M-W do that. However, this is not flow theory, and the argument that it makes the bore more "conical" for the notes using 4th valve is a mixed argument. If the bore coming out of the 3rd valve is still the small bore, then you will have constriction going back into the bugle out of the 4th valve, and could actually impede the nodes & antinodes and make matters worse, not better.

Last, a lot of these small bore/big bell horns have great false partials that are comparatively smooth. If that is the case, the horn will play better with these, starting with low Ab as open and going down from there, and again, no real advantage will be obtained by adding a 4th valve.

I would start by simply flipping the 1st valve loop and adding the adjuster to the 2nd valve so that regular combinations of valves can be played better in tune, see how the "false" partial notes speak with a Wick 3, and go from there before finally deciding as to whether or not to add a 4th valve.

[dantetuba]

The notes D (position 2) and D flat (position 1), well-tuned sound, the problem is that the note Bb 1-3 and A 1-2-3 sound very muffled. Regarding the output of the third valve there is a ring connection that serves as a passageway for a far larger bore for the bow of tune, I believe this may enable the adaptation of a fourth valve.
Ledpipe was adapted in a larger bore where you put the mouthpiece that is making me uncomfortable, because I can not test the tuba with a smaller shank mouthpiece. First I need to fix this problem by leaving the original measure rather then test with a Denis Wick Classic 3 and see how they sound the notes especially the lower register and the falses tones.

Thanks

P.S.: And with respect to the model in Eb Kanstul? Are the same measure of first three valves and the 4th valves to measure of 0.689".

[iiipopes]

From the Kanstul website about their front-valve Eb:
"Model 66-S 4/4 EEb Side Action Concert Tuba
.656" / .689" 4th / .710" Rotor Bore; 19" Diameter Bell"

Thanks for clarifying. I thought you has spoken of the D & Db as being flat. It is not uncommon for 1+3 and 1+2+3 valve combinations to be "stuffy." If this is the case, and everything else is doing fine, especially D & Db, then a 4th valve may work after all. But I'd still "flip" the 1st valve tubing and add the 2nd valve adjuster so that 2+4 low A nat & 1+4 low Ab can be pulled down to pitch.

Regarding the receiver, it is very common to change the receiver from the older .490 shank tip size to the "Standard" "American" .520 receiver, because of just that: there are many more mouthpieces to choose from with the .520 receiver. But do not despair. In the Denis Wick line, the playing aspects of the "no letter" models are exactly the same as the "L" models, the only difference being the shank. The rim, cup, throat and backbore are identical from model to model. So if you like the Wick 3, then the 3L model will play the same. I can attest to that personally, having over the years owned the following: 1, 1L, 2, 2L, 3 & 3L. I would advise against switching the receiver back to the older, smaller size, because it limits the available mouthpiece choices if you decide on something different or additional in the future.

[dantetuba]

Thanks for clarifying, I forgot to mention that the note C 1-2 sounds wonderful, like a tuba in Bb (1-3).

I'm analyzing the addition of the 4th valve because I think it will miss the area for bow tuning.I may have to adjust the first curve after the slide tuning to compensate for this loss of area.

Thanks

Dante

[SousaSaver]

The player could try a new mouthpiece...or a valve rebuild.

[dantetuba]

First I'll try a smaller mouthpiece if the case does not improve, I will adapt a 4th valve measuring 0.689 ".
But wanted to know the "Tubenetters" more experienced, why those notes are muffled? BBB, AAA.

[imperialbari]

First I'll try a smaller mouthpiece if the case does not improve, I will adapt a 4th valve measuring 0.689 ".
But wanted to know the "Tubenetters" more experienced, why those notes are muffled? BBB, AAA.

A stuffy note is sign of a discrepancy between the wanted pitch and the resonance offered by a given fingering of the instrument. There are endless numbers of potential reasons. Some would be leaks, obstructions to the tubing (dents, toys, rodents, birds), misaligned valves.

It also may be as simple as the length of tubing being wrong. This is an inherent fault in 3 valve instruments, as combinations 1+3 and 1+2+3 are too short. Try some slide pulling. If that improves the sound, then we may discuss your options from there.

Klaus

[dantetuba]

I will check......

Thanks

[Donn]

But wanted to know the "Tubenetters" more experienced, why those notes are muffled? BBB, AAA.

A stuffy note is sign of a discrepancy between the wanted pitch and the resonance offered by a given fingering of the instrument.

Then I suppose we aren't talking about stuffy notes. At least for my old Eb "Giant" of similar vintage, these notes are poor however I play them - flat, sharp, whatever. There simply isn't much resonance to speak of.

Unlike the C right above them, which enjoys plenty of resonance, and unlike the E and F above them, which are reasonably in tune. I'm sorry to say I think this is a feature of the acoustical design of the instrument, that can't be fixed as easily as pulling out a slide or trying a different mouthpiece. I wonder if analysis of the physical standing wave structure of the notes in the bugle, if you knew how to do this, would show what's happening - maybe right about at Bb, the lengthened straight valve and leadpipe tubing impinges on some critical feature of the longer wave form and thus doesn't support the resonance. At any rate, we have a combination of straight valve tubing and extra-wide conical tubing, and at some point as the straight tubing gets too long, my "Giant" turns into a dwarf.

For me, if there's anything I can do about this, it is to practice more. I will never be able to compete with a Bb tuba on these notes, but I suspect anyone who thinks he can do that on an Eb tuba is kidding himself. I can learn to play them better than I do now, though.

[dantetuba]

Actually today I played my York and realized that "pp " BB and AA does not sound good, but playing "F " these notes sound much better.
Thanks

[dantetuba]

Today I played with a Big Band. The York did very well, excellent response in all registers. I'm impressed ..
And best of all, a good setting.

[dantetuba]

Doubt.
I do not know if everyone knows but I bought a set of valves of a Tuba Holton in Eb, but the salesman told me a wrong measure of bore. The bore of this set of valves is 0.656" not 0.689" as he said. Well, I'm thinking of using only the valve, as a friend mine here in Brazil has the pipes as 0.689 ". I wonder if I have a problem with using a valve 0.656 "with slides 0.689" will it work? I can enlarge the holes in the valve?

Thanks

Dante

P.S.: Forgot to mention. My York came with the original case ... Cool!!!!

[imperialbari]

The concept of putting a wider tubing after a narrower valve is not unique. I first heard about it done with a bass trombone model, which did not impress me. I last remember that concept applied on the 4th valve of the Conn 52-54-56J CC tubas. That model series has been discontinued after not so many years in production.

The problem not so much is the expansion of the tubing after the valve. The problem rather comes, when the tubing has to be shrunk to reenter the valve. I would return that valve set to the seller, as he has given you wrong information.

Klaus