Double Buzz?

[tubadavid94]

I am having trouble on my CC tuba with the 2nd space C and the 2nd line B tending to double buzz when played loudly. This does not happen when I play BBb or F tuba. Is this a common trouble note on CC tuba?

[termite]

I've had lots of double buzzing issues over the years. The most helpful thing I've read was when someone posted on here that Arnold Jacobs said that double buzzing was caused by the embouchure being starved of air and to open up the oral cavity and keep the tongue down and out of the way.

Regards

Gerard

[Roger Lewis]

I have found over the years that the double buzz, in MY case, was caused by the lower lip not being firm enough to buzz at the speed the upper lip is requiring of it. This mis-match causes the lower lip to begin to oscillate at a frequency about 1 octave lower. Try firming up the lower lip ever so slightly and it should go away. Using more air would accomplish the same thing.

This is MY experience, but it worked with my students as well.

All the best.

Roger

[Homerun]

(when Roger speaks, I listen) Sit in front of a piano. Play the pitch(es), sing them, buzz them, play them. Repeat over and over. Develop a habit of trusting your ear in combination with your muscle memory to produce the desired pitches. This repitition will help get you to the point that you can trust yourself to produce the tones you want, and not rely on the horn to fill in the blanks for you. I'm not one to assume, but it MAY be a simple problem of you wanting to "slot" those pitches where the horn doesn't. Just a thought.

I have noticed that this works with "cracking" notes easily within my range, but the horn tends to pull the pitch higher or lower than I hear them. I used this method to get over some of the same problems you are dealing with.

[toobagrowl]

Sometimes if you switch between tubas and mouthpieces, it causes some double buzz.

[Alex C]

I have found over the years that the double buzz, in MY case, was caused by the lower lip not being firm enough to buzz at the speed the upper lip is requiring of it. This mis-match causes the lower lip to begin to oscillate at a frequency about 1 octave lower. Try firming up the lower lip ever slow slightly and nit should go away. Using more air would accomplish the same thing.

This is MY experience, but it worked with my students as well.

All the best.

Roger

What he said.

[colpo1]

I am having a similar problem. I recently switched from Bb to CC tuba and also switched from a conn helleberg mouthpiece to a PT-88. Subsequently I have begun to have a real problem with double buzz. The buzz begins on the F in the bass clef and happens on any note above. It isn't that bad when I first start practicing and I can somewhat control it. As time wears on however it gets worse and worse and eventually gets to the point where I cant control it and I have to stop practicing. I have tried almost everything to solve the problem including taking a couple days off, opening the oral cavity and lowering the tongue, using more air, and hearing the pitch in my head before I play. I have also tried firming the lower lip but I am not sure I am doing it right. This may be a stupid question but how exactly does one firm the lower lip without making it feel so unnatural that you cant play? I'm wondering if I should just switch to a different mouthpiece because thats the only thing left I can think of.

To the OP, there is a video on youtube that explains the double buzz and tells you several ways to possibly fix it. It didn't really help me but it may help you.

[Alex C]

Flatten your chin as Farkas describes in his description of a good embouchure, that will firm up your bottom lip.

If your problems started when you switched to the PT88, you might also consider switching back to the Helleberg.

Other aspects of a double buzz are so subtle that you really need a good teacher to guide you out of this. It is irritating but it happens to many people at some point in their playing career. You will get better.

[colpo1]

Thanks for the encouraging words. I cannot convey to you how frustrating it is for me to recognize that I have a problem and no matter how hard I try, not be able to fix it. Ill give the firming up of the bottom lip another try and if that doesn't work Ill try switching back to my old mouthpiece.

[fairweathertuba]

In my experience,given time, it has gone away on it's own. However, you might want to try buzzing the MP and see if you can make it come and go, then try to continue what makes it go away. Sometimes something as simple as MP angle can drastically affect tone. If your horn and chair make you play too upwind when you are a downwind player that could be a factor, also Mp position, whether the MP is setting too high or low on your lips.

[Roger Lewis]

Firming up the lower lip can be accomplished in two different ways. The simplest of these is to just roll the lower lip inwards ever so slightly. This puts slightly firmer tissue as the tissue is more weathered and naturally more firm. The other way is to just slightly add a bit more muscle tension to the lower lip which will accomplish the same thing. I prefer to roll the lip myself as I feel it gives me more control. We're only looking at very small changes here as too much of a good thing can be detremental.

Give it a try. It ain't hard.

Roger

[Doug Elliott]

Firm the area below your corners. Not AT the corners, BELOW them. That automatically firms the lower lip and uses the correct muscles.

Some people really don't have much muscle there, or don't know how to access it. Pulling the lower lip in, or flattening the chin, uses part of that same muscle area. I find that concentrating on the area below the corners is generally more useful.

A double buzz may seem like a "problem" but it's really a "symptom" that tells you you need to fix the actual problem, which is lack of muscle tone in the necessary part of the chops.

[iiipopes]

Firm the area below your corners. Not AT the corners, BELOW them. That automatically firms the lower lip and uses the correct muscles.

Some people really don't have much muscle there, or don't know how to access it. Pulling the lower lip in, or flattening the chin, uses part of that same muscle area. I find that concentrating on the area below the corners is generally more useful.

A double buzz may seem like a "problem" but it's really a "symptom" that tells you you need to fix the actual problem, which is lack of muscle tone in the necessary part of the chops.

This needs to be a sticky. It's the first diagnostic post to deal with the problem I've ever seen. I've done this myself, after some days' rest to approach the situation afresh. I can confirm that when I have a long gig that has gone especially well, these are the exact muscles that feel most fatigued. Not sore, not pained, just completely fatigued.

[termite]

How do you strengthen these muscles? - by playing exercises or is it done away from the instrument?

Regards

Gerard

[Doug Elliott]

It's not what you do, it's how you do it. Either in playing or away from the instrument (both, really), learn to feel and control the muscles I mentioned. Form, and where you concentrate the effort, is important to developing the right muscles instead of unknowingly relying on the wrong ones.

[colpo1]

Ok, so it is still happening for me but I have noticed something very interesting that could help me correct this. Im just not quite sure what to make of it so maybe you guys could help. When I play E thats the third space in bass clef with the fingering 1 and 2, I will get the double buzz. When I play E open, I do not get the double buzz. What does this mean?

[toobagrowl]

Ok, so it is still happening for me but I have noticed something very interesting that could help me correct this. Im just not quite sure what to make of it so maybe you guys could help. When I play E thats the third space in bass clef with the fingering 1 and 2, I will get the double buzz. When I play E open, I do not get the double buzz. What does this mean?

^Then play that E open. Playing E 1+2 will give more resistance & turbulence in the air stream cuz it is going thru much more curved tubing (at least 1.5' more) than playing it open...
You may have to approach the air stream differently (faster air?) because the horn will blow/respond differently on diff. notes or diff. fingerings. Try 3 on that E and see if it still gives you double buzz.

Are you staying on a mouthpiece or are you still switching around?

Of course, we can't really help you as we can't see and hear you play in person. Best to get a local good player whom you trust to try to help diagnose the double buzz issue.

[colpo1]

Oh I normally play E open. I just happened to play E 1 and 2 the other day and noticed the double buzz and i thought it might offer a clue for the double buzz on the higher notes. More resistance could definitely explain it because when I switched from Bb to CC tuba(when the buzz first started to occur) one of the first things I noticed was that the new tuba offered much more back pressure throughout the range. Ill mess around with it later today and see what happens. I haven't switched mouthpieces because when i tried out my old one i still got the double buzz. Ill just stick with the pt-88 for now.

[Doug Elliott]

Well, actually, I would agree... but I would say spend a couple of weeks ONLY playing a little (a small fraction of your normal schedule), only midrange, nothing strenuous, and ONLY very soft lip slurs in the midrange.

Quite often a double buzz is a SYMPTOM of an actual muscle injury that needs time to heal.

I think I've said it before - treating symptoms won't get you very far, until you treat the actual problem. A double buzz is merely a symptom of something ELSE wrong.

[opus37]

I have recently developed a double buzz on the C in the staff. I had recently changed mouthpieces to a larger inner diameter and narrower rim. I switched back to a slightly smaller inner diameter and wider flatter rim. The double buzz when away. In reading the posts here and watching the You-Tube video, I think lip support and fatigue were factors in my case. The corners on my mouth got tired in a short time, using the larger mouthpiece.