Jin Bao vs. Firebird

[Tubaguyry]

There's been a lot of buzz lately about what a great horn the Jin Bao F is. It certainly seems like a great deal to me. I know there are a lot of folks out there who aren't so keen on it, though. We've seen the posts extolling the virtues of the Jin Bao, but I'd like to hear some of the thoughts from those who DON'T like it. Here's the question for discussion:

In what way(s) is the Miraphone Firebird better than the Jin Bao 600 F? Please, no speculative answers, e.g., "It doesn't have the proven track record of Miraphone, so I think it will fall apart in a few years." I'm interested in the quantifiable. If you observe something physical in the construction of the two horns that leads you to conclude that one is superior, that is certainly relevant. Observed playing characteristics are, of course, of great importance.

Discuss!

[k001k47]

I think the Firebird can make faster notes.

[Homerun]

The firebird has a cooler name.

[TexTuba]

Stravinsky wrote a song for that Miraphone horn...or Miraphone made a tuba for us to play that song on. I forget which way it goes..

[muttenstrudel]

Hi!

I am pretty new here so let me introduce myself briefly.
I am a living in the Northwest of Germany (49413 Dinklage) and always wanted to learn how to play the tuba. "Unfortunately" my best friend persuaded me in 1985 to learn clarinet. So after a couple of years I studied clarinet and saxophone and became a music teacher at a public music school.
In 2009, after some major changes in my private life, I decided to fulfill myself a little dream and started to learn tuba.
Today I play tuba in my leisure time in different ensembles like a wind band and a big band - and I like it so much!
My instruments are a B&S JBL Classic, a Knoth 6V F-tuba (probably from the 50s), and a 5V Conn99J aka Cerveny 681-5X CC-tuba.

Now my two cents regarding the Jinbao: I had two of them at my house. The first one fell apart when I took it out of the case. Three (!) soldered joints were broke. Next one. Opened the case, became sick immediately. The tuba was just consisting of metal and solvents. Back to the store.

That's my experiences with the Jinbao F-tuba.


Regards,

Uwe

[MackBrass]

Here are my thoughts when comparing the Firebird vs the JinBao. First off I would like to say that I have owned the Firebird so my comparison will be honest and legit.

Comparison is as follows:
· Sound
o The firebird sounded too small for me and more like a euphonium. This was the main reason I sold it after only owning it for about 6 months.
o The JinBao has a much better sound, fuller and more open. This is due to the throat of the bell being larger than the firebird.
· Intonation
o When the firebird first came out, there were those who said this was the best in-tune F tuba ever made. I was greatly disappointed as the horn could have been much better in this area especially for what it cost. When I had the Firebird, there was plenty of slide pulling to make it work, more than the Alexander F, SLP, and B&S. Again, I can say this as I have owned all the above at one point or another.
o Intonation on the Jinbao follows many of the characteristics as the Firebird but they are exaggerated. The main note that needs attention is the F at the top of the staff as it is high. The intonation on these are very workable, but, you will need to make it work. The Jones trigger will solve all intonation issues.
· Upper register
o Boths horns are great in the upper register but Bydlo on the JinBao locks in better than any other F tuba I have owned, this was an OMG moment when I first played it on this horn. On the JinBao, I play the high g# using 2 & 6, this is one great advantage of having the 6th valve as you have more possibilities with alternate fingerings.
· Low register
o The JinBao, blows away the Firebird in this category. Although the Firebird is good, the Jinbao is better. The main thing about the low register of the JinBao is that the low Eb and D seem to be on the low side. Since the horn has very wide slots in the low register it is easy to lip them up.
· Craftsmanship
o Here the Firebird wins, but again you are going to pay for it. One thing I have to say about the JinBao horns and I will say it again, your not spending a whole lot of money here so there is nothing that should disappoint you in this category. If anything, I am extremely impressed at how good they are cosidering how much they cost. I find it hard to believe that there are those claiming they have had horns made in China, not just the F, but other models made in China, fall apart after taking it out of the box. All the instruments coming from JinBao go through many QA checks and if there is an issue within the manufacturing process, it goes back to be corrected. I would like to see some pictures from those who have seen soldering issues, or any other type of manufacturing defects that have made out of the factory. As far as quality, these are not bad at all and when you consider how much your paying for something that can be used on the professional level, these are the biggest bang for the buck.
· Parts and pieces
o Braces, linkages, and ferrules are the same on the JinBao as those seen on Miraphones, I mean they are the same parts but they come from two different manufactures.
· Bottom line
Both horns, as well as any new horn someone buys will need a period of time where the player will have to get used to the characteristics of that horn. If you’re a strong player, or a developing player, you should be able to play anything with the right approach and make it sound great. If your expecting to buy a horn and have it play you, it aint going to happen. There is no such thing as the perfect F tuba, but then again the Petrushka is pretty darn close. Oh, and I should mention, the JinBao F and the Petrushka F have the same bell dimensions, the main difference is that the JinBao has less of a flare. Overall, I like the Jinbao better when adding up all the pros and cons but it should be mentioned that this is not for everyone. If you have a 5k to 8 thousand dollar budget, then you will buy something else and it will probably not be either one of these models.

Regards,

Tom
MACK Brass of Virginia
http://www.mackbrass.com" target="_blank" target="_blank

[muttenstrudel]

Hi!

I am pretty new here so let me introduce myself briefly.
I am a living in the Northwest of Germany (49413 Dinklage) and always wanted to learn how to play the tuba. "Unfortunately" my best friend persuaded me in 1985 to learn clarinet. So after a couple of years I studied clarinet and saxophone and became a music teacher at a public music school.
In 2009, after some major changes in my private life, I decided to fulfill myself a little dream and started to learn tuba.
Today I play tuba in my leisure time in different ensembles like a wind band and a big band - and I like it so much!
My instruments are a B&S JBL Classic, a Knoth 6V F-tuba (probably from the 50s), and a 5V Conn99J aka Cerveny 681-5X CC-tuba.

Now my two cents regarding the Jinbao: I had two of them at my house. The first one fell apart when I took it out of the case. Three (!) soldered joints were broke. Next one. Opened the case, became sick immediately. The tuba was just consisting of metal and solvents. Back to the store.

That's my experiences with the Jinbao F-tuba.


Regards,

Uwe

Glad to have another tuba player!

BUT ---- do you have a Firebird? Or perhaps the clone of the Firebird?
What models were the JinBao tubas you had? Where were they shipped from? Which specific solder joints broke? Could you elaborate on the cause of your sickness...

It's all well and good to drop a comment about unfortunate events, but in the future it'd be better to reply to the topic - not your personal experience with an unknown instrument. The OP is looking for a specific comparison between the Firebird and it's Chinese JinBao clone.

True, you may have added a bit to the quality control standards, but that's not the issue at hand.

Hi!

I do not own a firebird but when I was looking for a new F I had the opportunity to play the Firebird 6V brass version a couple times for a longer while at the store. So I can tell you something about the difference between the Firebird and the Jinbao. The one is falling apart or soaked with solvents and makes you sick (Jinbao), the other one not (Firebird). But back to the topic:
- Firebird was played at the site of a brass dealer, Jinbao was shipped over 250km by DHL
- Firebird had a valve section that was like a dream, Jinbao's valves were somewhat scratching (6th valve (flat half-step) on first, 4th valve on second one)
- Intonation very good on Firebird throughout the range, intonation on Jinbao not too bad, but not quite as good as on Firebird
- Jinbao blows freely, as good as Firebird

But: Yes, master, I apologize for this incomplete report on the experiences I have made with this two instruments. Just a hint by the way: If you feel like reprimanding posters you should have had a look at the three post before mine and left a comment on them, too. Because they don't even tell any experiences but are nonsense.
But thank you very much for your warm welcome!

Regards,

Uwe

[Homerun]

You might want to get used to the nonsense- its all over the place on these boards.

[tubalex]

I do hope we get some professional who knows both tubas well to chime in here.

I have been using a Firebird for a couple of years, and I've owned and been enjoying a Chinese 186 clone for about six months. Also, I've had, and currently have, plenty of students who play 186s. So here is my imperfect set of thoughts on this topic:

My 186 clone plays remarkably well for the price I paid. Intonation is almost identical to the many 186s I've played in the past; a few alternate fingerings and easily-moving first, third and fifth valve slides and you can fit into any group's pitch. The super-thin metal actually makes the horn sing quite well (and dent really, really easily) and so far the rotors and linkages have all worked out great (smoother chromatic slurs than my beloved PT6p, barely). I did have to have about 1.5 inches cut off the tuning slide to get it up to 440, but I had to have the same thing done to a PCK a few years back.

My Firebird is terrific. I have a gold-brass one, which seems to get a little more "sizzle" in the tone, as well as more DBspl, and it wasn't until I played a gold-brass Firebird that I took the model seriously against the PTs. The pitch is very easy to control-the easiest rotary F I've every played- and the tone is particularly effective in the quintet literature-currently my bread-and-butter in the realm of performance. The tone is a little small and occasionally I miss the sonic dimensions of my PTs very much. Still, it works and makes my life easier.

The problems I've run into with my Chinese horns (I have a Chinese euphonium, as well) is in the construction. This is to be expected but it is not to be ignored. Water keys, threads on valve caps, soldering, other connective areas, laquer, felts, ergonomics (the valves on my 186 clone are almost comically far apart), and, yes, durability of the metal are all drastically inferior to German instruments. I guess this is where the thousands of dollars difference come in.

When I was a freshman in college I bought a Hirsbrunner HB1p. It was an amazing instrument and I was a fool to eventually let it go in the quest for the elusive perfect BAT. Big tubas are great and did a lot for me but I should have kept the HB, as it was an exemplary instrument. It was several years old when I bought it and is, I believe, still being used professionally now-12 years after I sold it. It will hold up to a lifetime of playing, as will most Miraphones, B&S's, Meinls, HBs, etc. I have no confidence that my Chinese instruments will last, as I've already run into some tedious snags just keeping them operating and in their original shape.

Don't get me wrong; I enjoy my cheap, effective Chinese instruments. Some day I'll have a backup PT6 and a pair of Besson or Willson euphs to enjoy, but until then it's just terrific to have the option of dropping very little money for an instrument that plays well. However, if you are purchasing with the long-term in mind you should really purchase an instrument that has a pedigree of some sort, and one that you feel confident will take the abuse of constant use, and be easily repairable with replacement parts on your continent.

So, does anyone actually know well the two instruments that were the point of departure for this thread?

[Wyvern]

The one is falling apart

Maybe it had a very rough time in shipping? I have known expensive brands to also arrive with unsoldered stays after bad treatment on route.

Mind you, must wonder if the dealer checked before despatch? I carefully check over and play test each tuba before it going out to buyer.

[MackBrass]

Neptune makes a very good point that calls into the question of QA. Although the manufacturer has quality controls set in place, the most import QA takes place at the dealer level. It is a shame that when a dealer receives the products from China there are some that never open the box it was shipped in to check the horn. I know for a fact in speaking to people that have bought instruments from other dears that they were not happy in that slides did not move or valves were frozen when the horn arrives after purchase. I am sure that if there was an issue identified by any dealer with an instrument when it arrives, it would not have been shipped if a defect was detected.

As a dealer and speaking to Al at BigBottom and Johnathan (Neptune) we have all discussed what measures we will take to ensure that products we sell will be in tip top shape prior to shipping.

I would like to throw out a challenge to anyone whom has had a problem with their horns. Please post pictures of defects seen on arrival as well as tell us all about what specific things had to be done to your horn to make it or keep it serviceable. As far as replacement parts go, they are very available and I know that Al, Neptune, and I will be stocking them for the rare occasions when needed. But pictures of defects or horns falling apart out of the case would be nice to see. I can tell you right now that if you receive a new instrument and it has the original box that is OK. Now if the box only has one layer of tape on it keeping it closed, I guarantee that is was not inspected at the dealer level, this is a shame as it does not give a good first impression to the customer when the valves are frozen, valves not aligned properly, damage to the horn from shipping, or the slides do not move from sitting for months on the shelf. These are not manufacturing defects but lack of QA from the dealer.

[tubalex]

The problems I've run into with my Chinese horns (I have a Chinese euphonium, as well) is in the construction. This is to be expected but it is not to be ignored. Water keys, threads on valve caps, soldering, other connective areas, laquer, felts, ergonomics (the valves on my 186 clone are almost comically far apart), and, yes, durability of the metal are all drastically inferior to German instruments. I guess this is where the thousands of dollars difference come in.

these are my complaints so far.

[Wyvern]

durability of the metal

Please can you explain - Are they not both made of brass?

I do know what you mean about the key spacing of the JinBao 410 (it is not quite a clone of the 186, there are a few differences, not least bore size), I did find them rather wide for my liking - rather like the spacing on the large piston valves used by Miraphone on the 1291. However I am sure a good repair man could bend them inwards for you. I had that done on the Cerveny 701 Kaiser BBb I previously owned.

[Alex C]

There have been at least two favorable comments about the Chinese horns from people who are importing them for sale. It would have been more ethically professional to state the relationship to the product before tooting the horn in public.

I've been curious about just how 'good' the Jin Bao's are ever since a poster I have come to know has been so enthusiastic about them. But when I see retailers hawking the brand on a BBS I feel like I'm reading an infomercial. I'm just saying.

Welcome to the new poster from Germany named Uwe! Not every reply you get on this board will be snippy (beißend?). You will just have to ignore any reply like that.

[corbasse]

... Opened the case, became sick immediately. The tuba was just consisting of metal and solvents. Back to the store.

Could you elaborate on the cause of your sickness...

I see where Uwe's complaint comes from. When my 600 arrived, the case and instrument reeked to high heaven from all the chemicals used in production and transport. My wife felt nauseous almost the moment I opened the box and banished it from out living room.

The amount of chemicals used may be a bit over the top, there are plenty of stories about the copious use of insecticides in export containers from China. But, come on, a few days in a well ventilated space and this "problem" is solved permanently. It shouldn't be a reason to RMA it.

[muttenstrudel]

Welcome to the new poster from Germany named Uwe! Not every reply you get on this board will be snippy (beißend?). You will just have to ignore any reply like that.

Thank you, Alex. It's a wise advice.
And thanks for your Welcome!


Regards,

Uwe

[Lingon]

...I see where Uwe's complaint comes from. When my 600 arrived, the case and instrument reeked to high heaven from all the chemicals used in production and transport...

[off topic mode]
Aha, I just wondered why the case smelled so much when one of my instruments arrived. However as you wrote a couple of days ventilated in the living room it was cured, and all the insects that inhabitated the living room before was no more living either

As for the metal in the chinese made instruments I would say that from what I have seen, at least nowadays, it seems to be on pair with instruments from other parts of the world that I own. My main work instrument is Chinese made and I have used it all the time for soon to be four years. A colleague of mine bought a Bach, american made, hand slide that did show red rot after one and a half year. And there are other stories.

There were horror stories about the bad bad bad quality when Yamaha entered the market with their brass instruments and another one of my colleagues had an old yamaha trbn some 30 years ago. Everyone around him said that it would only last a couple of months up to a year and not play well. It is still living in perfect condition and does it's duty very well.

I think that well made chinese metal would not be more or less prone to be exhausted than if it was made in another country. Maybe it is more of a political issue?!

Bad and damaged instruments arrives from all parts of the world as I have had the 'pleasure' to see, even on the so called boutique instruments.

I am not selling the stuff just buying and using for my work...
[on topic mode]

So how does the two models compare regarding intonation in the higher register?

Does the linkage seems to work equally well?

What about tuning of the instruments? I think some have talked about tuning too high or too low causing either chopping or extending the main tuning slide?

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Please see threads:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42339" target="_blank

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43744" target="_blank

FWIW, I have also owned a terrific gold brass Firebird 6v--a very fine horn. However, IMHO, the JinBao F- model 600 lacquer- wins not just on price, but also for a sound I prefer. Yes, the JinBao did have a couple of loose soldier joints and some slide alignment issues, but don't think for a moment that German horns don't have that at times (like selling horns with the ports not matching up with the tubes, BBb leadpipes on CC tubas, receivers jammed on leadpipes, pitch issues,piston issues--I once had a German 6/4 CC that had piston casings that looked like they used a car brake tool to 'hone' the casings!, etc.). And yes, the F in the staff is high--on the Firebird, it is not--for the JinBao, you can use 2-3 on it, but I now use a trigger (see above) for it and I accept that as a trade off for a sound I prefer with the JinBao. Also, my repairman corrected the problems -braces, slides, and now all is well. I do know that on some Asian horns, the caps on piston horns get to be noisy ( I had a lacquered JinBao comp. euph with this issue)--they need to be careful with the threads on their piston casings and improve that area. Also, every Asian horn has had the screw loose on the spit valve--a very simple fix, but they should be more careful. BTW, I have never found the metal on these horns to be thin--like Cervenys--but a bit thicker than on German horns. Finally, the Chinese must use the proper jig when assembling tubas, so as to make certain everything is aligned properly.

I used the JinBao F in April and this month on about 15 different brass quintet gigs--and you can do EVERYTHING on this horn--no problem, no sweat. As I have stated in the past, I think of the JinBao F not in terms of a Firebird, but--and don't laugh--in terms of "an Alex F with a low range...beautuful singing sound with the low range of a piston F." My 2 cents...

I have a silver 186 CC clone -model 410- and Bb 4 rotor tenor tuba -model 350-coming shortly (I hope!), and a Xuqiu micro 'mini-me' lacquer 4 rotor F also on its way. I have also owned an Eb lacquer comp. JinBao and a JinBao lacquer CC 186 clone, and both horns were SUPERB (NOTE: you WILL want to add a water key to the 5th valve slide on the 186 CC clone--someday you will be playing low and exposed, and water will gurgle [I know-I've been there!]--a water key should be added--either Amado or Saturn)--never any problems with chemical smells or the like. The 186 CC clone is truly a 'projecting machine'--it cuts through cleanly even with use in orchestra. I also owned a piston CC JinBao -4 piston, 1 rotor-tuba, model 450--and I would recommend that you stay away from that for the time being-IMHO, Either needs to be redesigned, or dropped and made differently. Many issues that just make it not a choice for 2011-agsain, IMHO.

Also, please note--I do not get paid for my past or current writings about what I have found on the Asian clones--but --if someone would like to send me on their nickel to China to give suggestions or to design some horns, I am available I just have seen that in our life, it seems that everything--even the new MacBook Pro I am using as I write this--is made in China, so I figured I would try these horns out to see if they played nicely, and have been VERY pleased with the price AND quality.

Anyways, the BEST WAY is to go play a Firebird, and then see somebody who has a JinBao F or go visit Al, Tom, Jonathan (U.K.), or Michael, and try the horn. Everyone has their own tastes--and the above is just my opinion(s)...good luck!

Regards-
mark

PS Never had an issue on gigs or over a period of time of having the Asian horns 'fall apart' or 'break down'--

[MikeMason]

It seems the whole "smell" issue is with our european brothers? Maybe an EU regulation regarding Chinese insects? Or maybe exclusive to one importer? Just sPeculation...

[TexTuba]

There's been a lot of buzz lately about what a great horn the Jin Bao F is. It certainly seems like a great deal to me. I know there are a lot of folks out there who aren't so keen on it, though. We've seen the posts extolling the virtues of the Jin Bao, but I'd like to hear some of the thoughts from those who DON'T like it. Here's the question for discussion:

In what way(s) is the Miraphone Firebird better than the Jin Bao 600 F? Please, no speculative answers, e.g., "It doesn't have the proven track record of Miraphone, so I think it will fall apart in a few years." I'm interested in the quantifiable. If you observe something physical in the construction of the two horns that leads you to conclude that one is superior, that is certainly relevant. Observed playing characteristics are, of course, of great importance.

Discuss!

What is your angle on this? Are you looking to buy a Firebird or a Jin Bao F? Are you simply looking to find people to trash their horns?

I am in NO WAY calling you out, but your wording on this is odd. All answers are in some way speculative. Horns, mouthpieces, etc., act differently for everyone. There are horns I've tried that I thought flat-out sucked..but they worked, rather beautifully, for their full-time operator.

The bottom line, IMHO, is this:

If you've got the dough to buy a Firebird, chances are you have the means to go play-test the horn or have some you respect do so for you. In other words, you wouldn't be asking this question. If you have the dough to buy one of these Chinese horns, buy one and enjoy it for what it is.

It would be like buying an iHome product and expecting it to be of the same quality as Klipsch or Bose. The iHome is in no way a piece of crap, but it's not top of the line.