Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"

[Mojo workin']

Pejoratively? Of course. This is a communist nation we are speaking about, with a track record off the scale for human rights violations, pollution, etc. You think slapping a smiley face on that changes the relationship between our two nations at all? We have fought their military twice in the lifetimes of many TubeNet posters. We have never been allies with them. We have only very strained trading ties with them for a reason. You fling the word pejorative around pejoratively and lacking logical application. I see the pejorative use of "communist" as needed and completely accurate.

pgym wrote:
You can decide whether it's a sign of immaturity or closet racism.

Since when is an extreme dislike of a political system a type of racism? Or immaturity, for that matter? I personally see a massive difference between the Taiwanese and the Chinese, based solely on politics. Do you not see this? Or are you, an attorney, a specialist in precise word choice, trying to prosecute some personal agenda here by implying that Joe is a closet racist or immature?

Could not have been said any better.

[bort]

Time to post the picture of the German beer girls and call it a day, folks.

[imperialbari]

Or swallow a Swallow, just to Parrot.

K

[averagejoe]

do people refer to Conn instruments as "those Capitalist American horns"?

I would be proud to call them that. I own 2 American horns: Conn 56j CC and Kanstul 80 F. It makes me smile to think of my money staying in the economy of the country I reside. I support America and Capitalism. My purchases were not about being against foreign manufacturers, but an affirmation of quality products (that I have use for) being made in my society and economy. At the same time, if quality American made options were not available I would have had no problem purchasing foreign products. The point is that I want to support healthy competition so that products will improve (a capitalist concept, which I am not ashamed of), and that I prefer that my countrymen do well in the competition for business.

I think that the horns are called "Chinese" because:
-They are made there.
-There is definite confusion about manufacture and branding. As others have explained there are a plethora of JinBao importers. I have never seen "JinBao" stamped on a tuba, only the importers logo and/or name. There have been many conflicting statements on this board as to if all tubas made in China are JinBao tubas (the only other Chinese brand of brass instruments I can think of is Berkely and they may actually be JinBao made).
-Technically the government of China owns all manufacturing within it's borders so "Chinese tubas" are a product of China in a more involved sense that Yamaha instruments are a product of Japan or Kanstul instruments are a product of America.
-Saying that a product is "Chinese made" is a loose way to indicate expected quality of the product. I don't think that it is wise to "poison the well" and assume that all products made in China are low quality, even though it is factual that the economic strategy of that nation is to undercut prices of competitors products however possible. So although you were not referencing the quality of products by bringing this up, the perceived quality of products in general have helped lead to the labeling that you don't like.

I don't perceive that individuals on this board are trying to be insulting toward the Chinese people by referring to the instruments made in China by their place of manufacture. I have not seen any evidence that those on this board think less of Chinese people based on the quality of their products. People understand that products made in China are carefully calculated to have appealing value, sometimes at the cost of overall quality. This is simply an intelligent business strategy. Nobody assumes that the Chinese people are somehow less capable or intelligent than other people groups based on their tubas. I just don't see how calling Chinese tubas Chinese is derogatory. I am proud that American tubas are made in America, and I am sure that JinBao and Chinese people are proud that Chinese tubas are made in China.

[MackBrass]

I was not going to chime in but I feel as though I have to. Stamping logos of importers is nothing new as it is a practice that has been going on for years. Conn, Weltklang, Walter Sear, and many others have been doing it for decades. I will tell you, the reason I have MACK Brass on my instruments that come out of China is for branding/advertising only. It is true that there are dealers out there that beat around the bush without telling the truth as to where their products are manufactured, all I can say is let the buyer beware and a good consumer is an educated one. When I started my business I spent countless hours thinking about the logo and felt it was best to place my company logo on the instruments as well as let anyone interested in buying know where they come from.

As far as deception goes, the dealer you choose to deal with will be the one who is honest or will be the one you will not recommend to your friends. I know that the better dealers will let you know right from the start where their horns come from and anyone who shops around for a horn can easily figure out who they are.

When we speak of horns made in China, there are many manufactures out there, not just JinBao. One poster stated "When you stick the distributor's name on it, it cheapens the brand and leads to confusion". Not sure what the confusion is or how this cheapens the brand? What brand are you referring to? When your creating a brand you want to promote what you sell and you want your product associated with your name. This is a basic practice in business 101. One thing I can say is honesty is the best policy as this I learned a long time ago. There are those who only think of the bottom line and then there are those who want to provide great service.

The best companies are those who practice great internal and external customer service, as this is what it is all about. Provide the customer what they need, not what you want to sell them. If what is on the logo bothers you, then you should shop somewhere else.

By the way, here is a new upload of me playing the JinBao F tuba, enjoy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCCKzRGqjGg" target="_blank

Tom

[Dan Schultz]

......One poster stated "When you stick the distributor's name on it, it cheapens the brand and leads to confusion". .... Tom

OK. What makes the horns you sell any different from the other five or six sellers/importers who have sprung up in the last couple of years?

Is it all just a matter of price? ... or is there really a difference in quality even though several sellers are hustling the same horn?

Sorry, Tom. But... it IS quite confusing.

[tubaforce]

Ok!
My Turn!
All JinBao's are created equal! There is one middleman claiming to sell hand picked JinBao's and other makes, but, based on what I hear, the sellers of those instruments that actually check their Tubas have a punch-list of items they address on each model they sell. And those are the same issues I find on my Jinbao's! Burrs, the odd faulty solder joint, valves not aligned properly, to name the main 3 issues. Before any one bashes TubaMM, as far as I know, Michael has never claimed any false origins for his instruments, and, to the best of my knowledge, he was the 1st. to import JinBao(and more recently, others) instruments in any numbers...I remember WoodWind and BrassWind branding their 186 clones "Allora", perhaps in an attempt to justify a high markup? This IS America, where we're free to charge what our market will bear! There was a time when Chinese Instruments of any type or make were pure crap!!! The 4-Rotor, 3/4 CC(JinBao 400) was the 1st. Chinese Tuba I tried that one could actually play in tune, albeit with some effort! With the exception of the 4-piston, 1-rotor CC, the newer offerings from the East have been better than the older offerings! I have been leaving "JinBao" on my axes, but I may start labeling my stuff "Big Bottom, by JinBao". I wish folks could afford the fine Kanstul offerings from California, USA! But I can't afford one for myself yet! I wish these Chinese Tubas had been around (at their current level of quality) when I was a broke College student who couldn't afford $2,000.00 plus for a Miraphone, or even a Yamaha 641 of my own!

Al

[Donn]

There is at least one regular poster who consistently refers to Chinese-made goods pejoratively as "communist Chinese":

Pejoratively? Of course. This is a communist nation we are speaking about, with a track record off the scale for human rights violations, pollution, etc. You think slapping a smiley face on that changes the relationship between our two nations at all? We have fought their military twice in the lifetimes of many TubeNet posters. We have never been allies with them. We have only very strained trading ties with them for a reason. You fling the word pejorative around pejoratively and lacking logical application. I see the pejorative use of "communist" as needed and completely accurate.

While that expresses my own opinion very well, it may be worth mentioning that in a world where there are technically two nations that claim to be "China", "communist china" also is historically common usage for the country that is in more formal English known as the "Peoples Republic of China." In principle it doesn't have to be pejorative, it just happens that the unfortunate connotations in fact originate in large part from China itself (so it's hard to be sympathetic.) And today it's superfluous, as everyone uses "China" to mean PRC. So I prefer not to use the term "Communist China", because as accurate as it may be, it would make me sound like an ancient ideologue. My problems with China have to do with things like pollution, repression, occupation of Tibet, etc., their economic system is not my concern.

[Wyvern]

Technically the government of China owns all manufacturing within it's borders so "Chinese tubas" are a product of China

I don't know if that is any more really true than for other countries? China may still be technically ruled as a communist country, but business wise they have now very much embraced capitalism. The manufacturers of these tubas are independent companies run much like companies in the west. When I visited China back in the 1980's it felt oppressive, but today it looks and feels pretty free for 'normal' people. There seems less Police presence than in the west.

For the matter of logos, I thought long and hard about this. My main reason for selling tubas stencilled 'Wessex' is simply to provide a corporate identity to models that come from multiple sources. For example the compensated Eb and BBb I will sell to brass bands come from two manufacturers. By branding I can call them the Wessex brass band tubas and sell as a set to bands.

The other reason for branding is consumer resistance to items with Chinese names. I tried selling unbranded Eb I had for sell on eBay. When I listed as 'JinBao Eb' half the number of people looked as when I listed as 'Wessex Eb' - interesting!

However I make no secret of the source, the manufacturer of each model is clear on my website.

This matter of using corporate brand on tubas made elsewhere is also employed by the big name tuba companies. Student model Besson were for years made in India and and now also being made in China, while their Sovereign range is labelled Besson, England when they are today made in Germany. That is the way of business.

[Homerun]

Call Fender and ask them where their axes are made. All of them. And be prepared to get a map.

[MackBrass]

Elephant all I can say is wow.

You said:
"Put JIN BAO on the bells. Allow these JIN BAO tubas to either sink or swim based on how they play and allow those who have started up distributorships in the Western world to become JIN BAO distributors."

I think that no matter what is on the bell, they have been proven to be successful. If they were garbage, JinBao would not still be in business after 20 years and dealers in the US would have stopped buying a long time ago.

You said:
Allow local repair shops to EASILY AND QUICKLY ORDER AND RECEIVE PARTS AT WHOLESALE PRICES so that repair techs will be more accepting of these horns.

What make you think that repair shops have no access to parts? What parts are you talking about? Have you ever had to buy parts for any of your tubas, ever? Any part made for any horn, is available. Its no different with horn made in Germany then it is from China. Guess what, most parts that may be needed are pretty standard and can be purchased anywhere? Have you looked closely at a JinBao horn lately, the parts look very familiar.

You Said:
"This cannot be done overnight. It will take time. Otherwise you will be forever saddled with this fishy, opaque, substandard way of doing business."

Putting a name on a horn or a product is nothing new as it is a standard practice performed buy companies all over the world in all areas of commerce. Do you really think this is the first time this practice has been done? This is why there are manufacturing companies, and companies that sell the products being made. The manufacturer makes the product then the distributor markets and sells the product.


You said:
"I am interested in purchasing both a CC and an F tuba from one of you guys in the future. But not in the current fishy environment. When things look more on the level and I can purchase needed parts easily and quickly and I am satisfied with my horns I will wholeheartedly recommend such horns. Until then, no way."

Not sure what is fishy here, I do know that these instruments are coming accross the pond. What would be more level in your opinion? Lower prices? Acceptance from your friends? Who cares?
Again, as for parts, what parts would you need to order and what experience do you have where you had a difficult time in getting what you needed. When was the last time you broke a spring on a horn made in China, or in Germany. Which part got here faster?

[Wyvern]

Elephant, I am sure any of the distributors will get you tuba with 'Jin Bao' on the bell if that is what you want. They are mainly not sold so engraved because dealers believe they will sell better with more western acceptable names. Outside readers of this forum very few tuba players will have ever heard the name Jinbao...and remember there are a lot more factories of which the names are completely unknown in the west - I had never heard of Huashen (or Huasheng according to translation) before visiting and they are the oldest and most revered brass instrument factory in China. Even us selling these tubas have a lot more to learn, but the important thing as Tom has said is not what it says on the bell, but how they play - which is remarkably good for their low cost.

It would be fascinating to do a 'blind test' listening say Firebird v JBFB-600 or 186 v JBBB-410, or 981 v JBEB-700 and see if people can tell the difference in sound produced, or even prefer the Chinese version's tone - which of course is what really matters! Can the player produce the music as well playing these cheaper instruments?

For spare parts, they are all available. In fact the part numbers of some are listed in my Jinbao catalogue such for example ball joint for rotary tuba is part BJ-50

[Michael Bush]

After a visit with Al on the telephone this morning, I'm looking forward to receiving later this summer a silver 800S that says "Jinbao" on the bell, and a travel tuba that says "Huashen." Having owned one before, and even, astonishingly enough, had a couple of small jobs done on it by a repairman who did not balk at working on it, I'm not worried about it.

[fairweathertuba]

The thing I don't like about JinBao (and many other Chinese manufacturer's) is that they exploit designs from other countries . Almost everything is a copy of something already succesful from the U.S. or Europe, with a few exceptions. I don't necessarily agree with all the copyright laws, but when you copy a complete product from head to toe, that is just stealing in my opinion.

[Michael Bush]

I don't see why this is so complicated. Those who want them are welcome to buy them. Those who don't are welcome not to. So why a four page thread?

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[fairweathertuba]

I don't see why this is so complicated. Those who want them are welcome to buy them. Those who don't are welcome not to. So why a four page thread?

th_Someone_Is_Wrong_On_The_Internet.jpg

I think people want to discuss the merits and cons of the instruments and their makers, discussion is not a bad thing really. If people did not want to discuss things, there would be no posting and no threads and no tubenet.

[averagejoe]

I don't see why this is so complicated. Those who want them are welcome to buy them. Those who don't are welcome not to. So why a four page thread?

th_Someone_Is_Wrong_On_The_Internet.jpg

It seems to me that the thread is longer because the distributors of the horns being discussed felt the need to steer the discussion towards the quality and value of the horns instead of the original topic of the thread; supposed prejudice.

B.T.W. I agree with many of The Elephants points and feel that he is right to bring up his concerns. Why wouldn't a distributor want to listen to the opinion of someone with real world repair experience with their tubas? They of talk about customer service, and Elephants suggestions seem to be real world ways to better serve customers.

[fairweathertuba]

If I had a tuba manufacturing co. and my only concern was to sell tons of tubas, I'd certainly consider stenciling out as many as possible to whomever was willing to pay for them. I don't think Jinbao or any other manufacturers are hiding behind stencils; they are engaged in selling to the free market.

[ginnboonmiller]

• Fender has a much smaller market share than they used to enjoy, partly due to this cost-saving measure of outsourcing to Mexico and Korea.

From this sentence forward in this thread, elephant made the transition from opinionated asshole directly to unmitigated research-challenged bullshit artist. And then a few hours later he adds emotional imbalance to the list of compelling attibutes to his writing.

I urge all lurkers on this forum and new guys to treat the information that you get here with the mocking derision that it deserves.

I don't post here very often. I've been lurking for years. There are a number of people that frequent this forum who hope that by writing in a pissed off, authoritative style, that no one will do any fact checking to see if they are full of **** or not.

They are.

Students, don't take any advice you read here seriously without consulting your teachers. Teachers, don't let your students know about this forum except for the "For Sale" section. Amateurs, find a better hobby. Professionals, practice or get a beer or something. If you don't check every single fact you read on this forum carefully, you will leave it spouting bullshit to your tuba playing colleagues that will embarrass you.

Also, the childish behavior of elephant in this thread is not justified in any way, not by the length of time he spends on the internet, not by his own talent or intelligence, not by the level of his deep personal offense at the fact that, perhaps for the first time in history, there is a factory making low-cost products and exporting them overseas to find customers who would otherwise want to buy higher quality, more expensive versions of the same product. The time to revolt is now, and tubas are the product to do it with.

[MackBrass]

Elephant

Maybe one day we can get together to compare notes and experiences as you seem to be very well versed in this area.

Keep one thing in mind, not every tuba player has 5-10k to buy a horn and your broad brush painting of manufactures and dealers is way off.

For now, I agree to disagree with you and I will leave it at that.