Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"

[SousaSaver]

Tubas are made all over. Buy them or don't. There's no use in getting up in arms over it. Deceptive marketing is RAMPANT in the musical instrument industry. Lots of folks are guilty of it. Is it right? No, but buyer beware. This is why it is so important to consult with your instructor or someone who is very educated in these matters when purchasing a Tuba. You can find a good value in Asian made horns, you just have to know where to look and try before you buy.

You are going to start seeing more and more production move to cheaper manufacturing outlets, and with this places like Conn-Selmer, Yamaha and others will be doing quality control to make sure that their products are good out of the box. The Asian instrument manufacturers will learn from this and start making better and more competitive instruments.

The professional level market doesn't really have anything to worry about in my opinion. I think (due to the pricing) you will start to see more student level instruments being sold to public schools.

I think Weril makes a great Tuba...but I have a bit of a bias.

[SousaSaver]

Also, there are components of European and American made horns manufactured in Asia and South America. Even VERY expensive German horns.

[tubaforce]

Hello again!
After a night's sleep and a cup of coffee, I have come up with a thought on why some folks are so upset about "Chinese" Tubas!
With players like Mark Jones and Rich Serpa, and even Neptune himself endorsing these horns, and Mack(who hadn't touched a Tuba for the better part of a year) getting such great results from his JINBAO, I've come to the conclusion folks are jealous! Jealous that they spent too much money on a Firebird as their SECOND axe, and could have spent all that money upgrading to a better contrabass Tuba! Or pissed because unscrupulous dealers sold them, or their students crappy Tubas, and didn't stand behind them, and OVERCHARGED them to boot! If I get a horn that isn't right, I have to eat the cost of righting it! If The thing stinks(literally), I would know because I OPEN THE CASES! I haven't smelled any thing other than preconceptions yet...
I can't blame folks like Dillon(and I bet Matt Walters checks each horn PERSONALLY) Baltimore, et.al. for stencilling their axes! Look at all the predjudice they have to overcome! If this forum had existed at the birth of Jupiter(I am mostly unimpressed), I'm sure we would be reading about those (non-commie) "Chinese" Tubas! And as to "fighting over pennies", were talking HUNDREDS of Dollars in difference between Mack and myself, and the next lowest price! I am not profit motivated, some might find that hard to believe, but its the truth! I'm just not a greedy person! Any one can buy a Tuba from me, and I'll carry my "profit" for up to 6 months after delivery!!! Yes, there are details the Chinese need to work on, and my associate Neptune just spent a buttload of money and part of his VACATION trying to better our product line! None of the three of us(Neptune,Mack and myself) need to make a living at this! I have Trumpets I have to mark up more than I care to, because people won't buy them if they're too "cheap"! I run ads on Craigs' List soliciting instruments for small School districts and under priveledged kids! I fix 'em up and donate them to the Band itself, or charge volunteer/community sevice (at $10.00 an hour), and/or cash for individuals! And the tax "write off" is only a percentage of my "costs"! I find it extremely insulting that Elephant and others claim we're in this for the money! Have you seen the Bb Mini Tuba? The one going elswhere for $1,600.00 and UP? Invoice on those is $400.00(up $30.00 from last year). Add 2.9% duty, and it's share of the shipping, $80.00 for shortening the !st. valve cicuit and a valve alignment, and I ship the thing all for $700.00 bucks! Tell me I'm greedy!!!

Al

[TheHatTuba]

Im Asian and I dont take any offense to the generalization. Its tubas they are talking about, not people (i hope).

[J Stowe]

Elephant, stop being so caddy. Anyone with sense will try the horn out before buying it. Stop bashing products in an open forum if you want to say you are making a complaint. Actually make it in private. Like a decent, respectable adult.

This thread was meant to be racially sensitive - not meant for your opinion based on frustrations with instruments at work. No one cares about that.

I have no agenda in this forum, I just think it should be said that an ignore feature should be added so that I don't have to read jerks' posts if I don't care to do so. Unfortunately that luxury isn't available, yet.

[Wyvern]

Then see if you can actually help the greater musical world through increasing the standards and consistency of construction of these horns.

I hope I have done my bit this last 10 days in China to get them to improve consistency. Guess will find out when we receive next orders!



Jonathan "pleased to see the Proboscidea is at last calming down"

[TexTuba]

I have no agenda in this forum, I just think it should be said that an ignore feature should be added so that I don't have to read jerks' posts if I don't care to do so. Unfortunately that luxury isn't available, yet.

Really? You do not have the option of scrolling past a post with the click of a mouse? You read "jerks' posts" because you choose to do so.

[J Stowe]

TexTuba..

My only counterclaim is that it's hard to do when much of the thread includes posts from him. However, I do feel foolish.

,

Justin

[tubaforce]

Mr. Elephant!
Have you not understood my posts? There is no need to be condescending! I expect better from a man of your obvious intellect! And this thread is exactly the place to defend the attack you have mounted! Of course Mack and I are deflecting your attacks where they belong! And didn't you read that my Tubas carry the JinBao logo? Or that I personally inspect each instrument prior to delivery? And did you not read that parts ARE available! How dare you question my motives, unless you are unaware of the prices others ask for the SAME instruments, with English and/or German names stencilled on their bells? If this (thread) had been concentrated on impressions of "Asian" Tubas, I could see your point about sponsor participation! Once an attack was joined, that all went out the window! And did I not mention 3 of the areas I routinely address on my instruments prior to shipping, or the nature of Neptune's "vacation"?

Al

[cjk]

Hello again!
After a night's sleep and a cup of coffee, I have come up with a thought on why some folks are so upset about "Chinese" Tubas!
With players like Mark Jones and Rich Serpa, and even Neptune himself endorsing these horns, and Mack(who hadn't touched a Tuba for the better part of a year) getting such great results from his JINBAO, I've come to the conclusion folks are jealous! ....

Ummmm kay. Soooooooo, what was in that coffee?

[cjk]

Elephant, stop being so caddy. Anyone with sense will try the horn out before buying it. Stop bashing products in an open forum if you want to say you are making a complaint. Actually make it in private. Like a decent, respectable adult.

This thread was meant to be racially sensitive - not meant for your opinion based on frustrations with instruments at work. No one cares about that.

I have no agenda in this forum, I just think it should be said that an ignore feature should be added so that I don't have to read jerks' posts if I don't care to do so. Unfortunately that luxury isn't available, yet.

You can go into the preferences and add other usernames to your foes list. After you log in, posts by people on your foes list will be hidden.

[Lingon]

I hope I have done my bit this last 10 days in China to get them to improve consistency. Guess will find out when we receive next orders!

You have let us all participate in part of your tour, where you hopefully found out stuff that will be of benefit for many and talked with the makers and also hopefully had a good time on your journey. All for free, for us that is. That is great.
Now, as you said we will see what happens with the next delivery, but what was the direct reaction from the makers when you discussed quality control?

Regarding the real makers brand vs stenciling. I, like some others, think that in the long run it would be better to use the real names so we know what we buy. As a parenthesis I remember when I bought that cheap japanese kamasa tools set many years ago and used it a lot until someone else decided that I should not have it anymore. Today kamasa is a high quality brand, still the same name. Then if we like the stuff we can tell others about these products like we do with the miras, conns, cervenys, larks, holtons etc. I also know that at least for jinbao the real name are beginning to show up here and there. In the US a couple of the sellers are now using the real name, in germany musicstore.com uses the real name, you will do a test etc. Maybe as a step on the way use the method with sellers name made by jinbao or whatever etc. Those makers have now, some already in the business for 40 years, matured and I think they may be able to stand for their products even in the west. It is also something about globalisation. If spare parts are accesible in a manner that equals or better parts made in other places then things will be even more interesting.

About quality control and spare parts I may say, after personal and colleagues experiences, that not even the US quality control is that good all times, and I do not know how many months some spare parts for my american made horns have taken to be delivered. Some parts not even possible to get from the company that made the horns. I remember the horn that nearly fell in pieces when lifted, many valve linkages that was so poorly soldered that the parts did fall of the horn, tenons to small to fit properly in the receivers, badly aligned and fitting slides etc. Not only on mass produced stuff by the large makers but also from smaller boutique instruments.

Sorry for the rant, but I had to.

Now let us hope that everyone will be happy with all the alternatives both regarding costs and quaility that we the users/players will have to choose from. May there be even more young people that can have a chance and the possibilities to start to play tuba and mature to great players that may have the knowledge how to master a musical instrument, be proud of it and have fun playing together with other people.

[Rivercity Tuba]

Hi all,

Just wanted to post and say that my experience with Tom McGrady at Mack brass has been on the up and up. He had 100% disclosure on issues with the instruments he had.He could speak on it, because he opened them and played them all. I know a horn came with a little ding and he was repairing it while I was there. Even though he fixed it he still disclosed the issue and offered to knock $200.00 off the price. Made me think that he didn't need to do that and I was dealing with someone that is very honest. I can also comment that Tom is in another field and makes well into the six figures. He is doing this because he loves tuba and his students. His profit margin is small, it isn't about the money. As I said earlier, Tom does go through the horns and discloses all about them including playing characteristics. He even told me he was going to stop importing a model because he thought there were too many issues to sell and be able to sleep at night, so he ate the cost. He also told me there were several tubas he tried and wont import them till they improve. If you have any questions about the horns I played feel free to PM me.

Richard Serpa
Principal Tuba/Richmond Virginia Symphony

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Just wanted to state for the record similar experiences as what Rich above says in regards to Al Triplett, a.k.a. Big Bottom Brass NW. Al is doing this not to make his living as an instrument dealer, but because of his desire to bring quality low cost horns to folks. I have had nothing but positive experiences with Al. I have heard similar positive experiences about Tom, a.k.a. MACK Brass. These guys are allowing folks to acquire excellent horns at prices that make you do a double take! I, for one, am thankful to Al, Tom, and Neptune for their desire to do this. This gives brass players another option in their 'hunt' for horns. If anyone would like to contact me personally re. these horns and/or the importers, please feel free to do so--or, better yet, if you are in the Western New York area and want to try the imported horns out, just give me 24 hours notice, and if I am free, you are more than welcomed to stop by and check them out.
Also, I am writing this post not because someone or some folks asked me to, but because I fell it was needed.

Regards-
Mark Jones
Buffalo, NY

[Wyvern]

Now, as you said we will see what happens with the next delivery, but what was the direct reaction from the makers when you discussed quality control?

They explained to me that they already have controls in place to check at every stage and send back to the worker concerned if anything defective. At JinBao the checker was in green shirt (against the assemble workers in blue) and was pointed out to me. On us commenting that this was apparently not picking up everything, they promised to review their procedures. They appreciate that they loose business when products are defective, so I'm hopeful they will work to improve. At least through my wife explaining in Chinese I am confident they understand the issues.

[Biggs]

TL;DR

[knarfman]

I'm going to start importing Communist Chinese tuba players and start using them in all of my orchestras. I'd bet that I can get them to play a symphony for only $40 (vs. $400 for the typical American or German tuba player), and (except for a few intonation issues) they'll play just as well.

Based on concerns previously expressed on this thread, a few questions arise about this, for example:

Are you going to check the valve alignments before you let these tuba players out of your "shop".
Do you have a reliable source for spare parts?
Will American repair techs (they're called "doctors" in this context, I believe) work on them?
What name are you going to stamp on their bells (or wherever)?
Will these tuba players provide "The Attitude, the Authority, the American Tuba Sound"?
etc. etc.

[123go]

I've been watching this thread play out. As seems to be the case with this forum far too often, a few overly aggressive individuals have taken it in a totally different direction. Those few bullies who dominate Tubenet have now become personal and vulgar (again). For that I apologize to everyone else who has once again been exposed to these stupid tirades. I would also like to apologize to Neptune and those other distributors for this nonsense, and especially Tom McGrady who is a very fine individual, musician, teacher, and low brass enthusiast making a solid and honest contribution to the music community. You have all been unfairly attacked by those fellows who make it so difficult to enjoy Tubenet. If I had any inkling that it might have turned out like this I would never have started the thread.

Although this was not the purpose of this thread I'd like to make a few points.

1. I don't care what anyone's impression of these horns was 30 years ago. ---I do care that these are excellent playing horns that are actually affordable without mortgaging my house. As a player and a teacher I view this as a very good thing.

2. I don't care whose name is stamped on the bell. ---I do care that these are excellent playing horns that are actually affordable without mortgaging my house. As a player and a teacher I view this as a very good thing.

3. In thirty years of playing, and twenty of those as both a professional musician and teacher, I have never had to buy parts of any kind and I have never had a repairman work on my equipment who needed replacement parts of any kind. I don't care whether there are replacement parts easily available. ---I do care that these are excellent playing horns that are actually affordable without mortgaging my house. As a player and a teacher I view this as a very good thing.

I'm going to start importing Communist Chinese tuba players and start using them in all of my orchestras. I'd bet that I can get them to play a symphony for only $40 (vs. $400 for the typical American or German tuba player), and (except for a few intonation issues) they'll play just as well.

One thing I would like all of us to do is to stop all of this Chinese coffee-drinkin' and - while we're at it - stop all of this nose-pickin'.

I yield the floor for three minutes to Mr. Shill.

Wow.......This is the reason I started this thread. This kind of language is offensive to many. Whether you consider yourself a racist, whether you were only joking, or whether you think I've misunderstood your intent, this language is still offensive to many. I suggest more racial sensitivity.

There is my 2 cents. Please feel free to continue your silly shouting, name-calling, and boundless accusations. I'm done with this thread.

[bisontuba]

[quote="the elephant"]......I am going on about the fact that Jin Bao does not care enough about customers to make certain that importers ALL do this; that ALL their importers are honest, test, repair and return faulty merchandise. They box them up, ship them out and wash their hands.......

Hi Wade-
You have peeked my curiosity--which of the European tuba Manufacturers care enough about their customers that they offer a warranty so that if a product from them is faulty, you can have it sent back to the factory? Say, for example, if the pistons are crummy and not 'honed' correctly, or the horn's piston valve ports are not made right and don't align correctly with the tubing ports, or if tubing has 'crimps', or if valve guides are either put on incorrectly or even not put on at all, etc. ---basically I am asking if any of these European makers have a warranty on their products and you can return them if they aren't built right? Do they also check out all their dealers/importers for best service to the clients or for those who can sell the most product?

I am not trying to start any more controversy (this thread has gone on WAY too long....), but am just seeing if I am missing something. I think ALL makers of instruments can have MUCH better quality control--whether in Asia or Europe-or here in the US.

Just my 2 cents......

Take Care-
mark

[TexTuba]

oh poo. You have the sense of humor of a stick of gum.

Hey, don't knock gum! I've seen some funny things gum can do...