Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"

[Wyvern]

Ok, there seems to be some opposition to stencilling - so what I will do is get some models in stock on my next couple of orders with both Jinbao/Huashen and my own Wessex brand name engraved and see what customers/buyers want. I am quite happy either way, but will be guided by consumer wishes. I know some people will not buy an instrument just because what is engraved on the bell

[jamsav]

wow....watching this thread with great amusement ....Neptune, I dont care what you call them ...keep pressing the manufacturer for better quality !
There is a long history of " stenciling" or private labeling here in the states , but it only seems to upset many when the original point of manufacture is Asia ....
If you dont like the horns, great , no problem, but for many , the value /price ratio makes sense and makes these horns an option .
Most importers dont try to hide point of origin ( Jim Laab being a possible exception ) .
It wasnt too long ago that many felt the same way about Yamaha ....the times they are a changin'....who'd of thunk of getting a good tuba out of Brazil ????
Judge the horn for what it is, and how it plays ....not for you , no problem , but I guaranty you , that in a few short yrs , these horns will start showing up in the hands of conservatory kids who will win auditions with them and ultimately carry them into some of the worlds best orchestras ....

[Wyvern]

Neptune, I dont care what you call them ...keep pressing the manufacturer for better quality !

I don't care what they are called either, but it seems all important to some people.

For quality, both my wife* and I stressed the need for better quality controls vigorously during our recent factory visits - will see what effect it has had

* My wife explained in Chinese, so there should be no language problem preventing understanding

[Tundratubast]

Wow, can't belive this wasn't locked days ago. This thread took off in multiple directions from the start, somethings factual, some mis-truths, lots of un-verifiable information, Some postive comments and thoughts, lots of critcal comments; both personal and technical, name calling. Overall value, meaningless squabble. Lock-it up and be done.

[imperialbari]

Very interesting to see at least one monkey coming down from the trees.

I don’t know American law, but at least in my country the guaranty obligations are with the retailer, who may then refer his claims to the importer.

Miraphone instruments sold in Southern Germany have ben seen to be engraved as prominently with the retailer’s name as well as with Miraphone’s. I don’t think it is demanded by law, only such engraving hints retailer and maker back their merchandise.

When the narrow bore piston French horns went out of fashion in England 50 or 60 years ago, B&H/Besson had no tradition of making rotary valves (even the early Sovereign trombone valves came out of Markneukirchen). Still B&H/Besson wanted being present in the market segment for horns. They had two foreign makers producing for them, Lidl and B&S (B&S out of their Hoyer workshop). It was not always clear which maker, but at least this engraving told the country of origin, and I have seen such engraving on a British military owned instrument:

Bell engraving.jpg

Schneider was the name B&S put on instruments which approached a grey area. This horn is a copy of an Alexander 103.

The American designer Fred Marzan worked together with Böhm & Meinl and with Willson. This engraving leaves no doubts about the actual maker:

Engraving.jpg

The Salvation Army made instruments considered very British, but apparently the business was not without problems as production stopped some 40 years ago. And this engraving tells even they distributed foreign instruments:

Engraving.jpg

If an importer keeps the engraving of the maker on the bell and adds Imported by [Name of his business], doubt would find much less reason.

Klaus

[The Big Ben]

Seven steins at once! Whatta gal! I'm in love!

[Lingon]

...not crap like "Lark"...

You mean like this great little alto? Nice horn that still lives and plays well with a nice sound and intonation.

This thread is fascinating and many things can be learnt both abouth the horns and some very interesting
attitudes and differences in the cultural/social interactive domain. Do not lock it because here is stuff
to be learnt, even if some of it maybe is a bit off topic. Why not rename the thread to something that reflects
the direction of the discussion a bit more?

[cjk]

[Bandsman79]

One question; would it be more, or less, racist for me to refer to them as "Oriental horns"?



BTW, I'll make my mind up about the quality of these instruments once I've played and inspected one.

[MackBrass]

Quality begins at the manufacturer and ends at the dealer. If an instrument winds up at the customer level with issues, then shame on that dealer, send it back, and shop somewhere else. Neptune, Al and myself have spoken in depth offline about quality, logos, pricing, websites, honestly, integrity and the measures we have put in place to make sure that customer service and satisfaction is the most important result.

We are the game changers and for this reason as well as many others we have decided to start our businesses. You can be assured that our products, yes, for now, made in China and not just by Jinbao, will be inspected, played and tested prior to shipping. Neptune has spent a lot of time and money on his trip to China, what he has posted on this forum is only a scratch on the surface of what he has accomplished and what is to come in the future.

[Donn]

There is a long history of " stenciling" or private labeling here in the states , but it only seems to upset many when the original point of manufacture is Asia ....

It wasnt too long ago that many felt the same way about Yamaha ....the times they are a changin'....who'd of thunk of getting a good tuba out of Brazil ????

But if you actually look at these examples, they illustrate the very points he's making. If I buy a "Carl Fischer" instrument from the '30s, maybe with a little research I can decide that it is 1) made by Conn, but 2) probably with some cost cutting. Yes, a stencil, and probably no great service to the instrument buying public, but the point is that meanwhile, Conn did produce instruments under their name. When they sign their name to an instrument, they live or die by the outcome. If a few years go by and it's increasingly obvious that "Schiller" tubas are inferior to their competitors, they only need to change the name to "Slizl" or something, but Conn is Conn, and we know them by well over a century of accumulated experience with their work under that label. If makers of "Schiller" are not interested in taking their place in that lineup of manufacturers who sell their work under their own name, then they evidently feel that they have nothing to gain by being compared with their competitors.

Yamaha and Weril evidently were willing to take that step, and have indeed shown that quality instruments can be made in various parts of the world.

[SousaSaver]

Tubas are made all over. Buy them or don't. There's no use in getting up in arms over it. Deceptive marketing is RAMPANT in the musical instrument industry. Lots of folks are guilty of it. Is it right? No, but buyer beware. This is why it is so important to consult with your instructor or someone who is very educated in these matters when purchasing a Tuba. You can find a good value in Asian made horns, you just have to know where to look and try before you buy.

You are going to start seeing more and more production move to cheaper manufacturing outlets, and with this places like Conn-Selmer, Yamaha and others will be doing quality control to make sure that their products are good out of the box. The Asian instrument manufacturers will learn from this and start making better and more competitive instruments.

The professional level market doesn't really have anything to worry about in my opinion. I think (due to the pricing) you will start to see more student level instruments being sold to public schools.

I think Weril makes a great Tuba...but I have a bit of a bias.

[SousaSaver]

Also, there are components of European and American made horns manufactured in Asia and South America. Even VERY expensive German horns.

[tubaforce]

Hello again!
After a night's sleep and a cup of coffee, I have come up with a thought on why some folks are so upset about "Chinese" Tubas!
With players like Mark Jones and Rich Serpa, and even Neptune himself endorsing these horns, and Mack(who hadn't touched a Tuba for the better part of a year) getting such great results from his JINBAO, I've come to the conclusion folks are jealous! Jealous that they spent too much money on a Firebird as their SECOND axe, and could have spent all that money upgrading to a better contrabass Tuba! Or pissed because unscrupulous dealers sold them, or their students crappy Tubas, and didn't stand behind them, and OVERCHARGED them to boot! If I get a horn that isn't right, I have to eat the cost of righting it! If The thing stinks(literally), I would know because I OPEN THE CASES! I haven't smelled any thing other than preconceptions yet...
I can't blame folks like Dillon(and I bet Matt Walters checks each horn PERSONALLY) Baltimore, et.al. for stencilling their axes! Look at all the predjudice they have to overcome! If this forum had existed at the birth of Jupiter(I am mostly unimpressed), I'm sure we would be reading about those (non-commie) "Chinese" Tubas! And as to "fighting over pennies", were talking HUNDREDS of Dollars in difference between Mack and myself, and the next lowest price! I am not profit motivated, some might find that hard to believe, but its the truth! I'm just not a greedy person! Any one can buy a Tuba from me, and I'll carry my "profit" for up to 6 months after delivery!!! Yes, there are details the Chinese need to work on, and my associate Neptune just spent a buttload of money and part of his VACATION trying to better our product line! None of the three of us(Neptune,Mack and myself) need to make a living at this! I have Trumpets I have to mark up more than I care to, because people won't buy them if they're too "cheap"! I run ads on Craigs' List soliciting instruments for small School districts and under priveledged kids! I fix 'em up and donate them to the Band itself, or charge volunteer/community sevice (at $10.00 an hour), and/or cash for individuals! And the tax "write off" is only a percentage of my "costs"! I find it extremely insulting that Elephant and others claim we're in this for the money! Have you seen the Bb Mini Tuba? The one going elswhere for $1,600.00 and UP? Invoice on those is $400.00(up $30.00 from last year). Add 2.9% duty, and it's share of the shipping, $80.00 for shortening the !st. valve cicuit and a valve alignment, and I ship the thing all for $700.00 bucks! Tell me I'm greedy!!!

Al

[TheHatTuba]

Im Asian and I dont take any offense to the generalization. Its tubas they are talking about, not people (i hope).

[J Stowe]

Elephant, stop being so caddy. Anyone with sense will try the horn out before buying it. Stop bashing products in an open forum if you want to say you are making a complaint. Actually make it in private. Like a decent, respectable adult.

This thread was meant to be racially sensitive - not meant for your opinion based on frustrations with instruments at work. No one cares about that.

I have no agenda in this forum, I just think it should be said that an ignore feature should be added so that I don't have to read jerks' posts if I don't care to do so. Unfortunately that luxury isn't available, yet.

[Wyvern]

Then see if you can actually help the greater musical world through increasing the standards and consistency of construction of these horns.

I hope I have done my bit this last 10 days in China to get them to improve consistency. Guess will find out when we receive next orders!



Jonathan "pleased to see the Proboscidea is at last calming down"

[TexTuba]

I have no agenda in this forum, I just think it should be said that an ignore feature should be added so that I don't have to read jerks' posts if I don't care to do so. Unfortunately that luxury isn't available, yet.

Really? You do not have the option of scrolling past a post with the click of a mouse? You read "jerks' posts" because you choose to do so.

[J Stowe]

TexTuba..

My only counterclaim is that it's hard to do when much of the thread includes posts from him. However, I do feel foolish.

,

Justin

[tubaforce]

Mr. Elephant!
Have you not understood my posts? There is no need to be condescending! I expect better from a man of your obvious intellect! And this thread is exactly the place to defend the attack you have mounted! Of course Mack and I are deflecting your attacks where they belong! And didn't you read that my Tubas carry the JinBao logo? Or that I personally inspect each instrument prior to delivery? And did you not read that parts ARE available! How dare you question my motives, unless you are unaware of the prices others ask for the SAME instruments, with English and/or German names stencilled on their bells? If this (thread) had been concentrated on impressions of "Asian" Tubas, I could see your point about sponsor participation! Once an attack was joined, that all went out the window! And did I not mention 3 of the areas I routinely address on my instruments prior to shipping, or the nature of Neptune's "vacation"?

Al