How does a new Orchestra survive?

[Alex C]

oops

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Yes, I know what a non-profit organization is. Yes, I know that non-profit organizations can have employees and that those employees are paid.

Are professional orchestras in the US typically non-profit organizations? If the answer is yes, why is that?

Yes, they pretty much all are. US orchestras generally don't have owners and/or stockholders.

The most obvious answer as to "why" is that non-profit organizations are eligible for a large variety of grants that for-profits don't qualify for.

I'm not sure what you're getting at...would it be somehow "better" if US orchestras were for-profit?

[olaness]

Car dealers make pretty good "headline" donors. Let them park their fanciest car (Lincoln whatever / Cadillac whatever / BMW whatever / Mercedes whatever / etc.) right outside the main entrance to the concert with spotlights on it. Try to encourage board members and orchestra members (if not their fancy new cars, some of their decent/affordable trade-ins) to buy cars from that dealership. Again, give them back something "real" in exchange for their substantial support.

Bloke has something there. I have for the past five years or so played for a scratch group that gets together once or twice a year to play a concert actually inside a car dealership. They get all the cars outside (place the nicest ones by the door, obviously) and replace them with chairs. Rubbish acoustics, but the punters do come. And I do believe the dealership puts up a fair amount of the money for the gigs.

Another idea that I have (so far unsuccessfully) tried to plug to various orchestras and promoters is to pitch the concerts differently. Having something more of a jazz club type of atmosphere at a classical concert could be a good USP for a new group. As in, having tables with chairs around them for the audience as opposed to the usual way of having them all in neat lines facing the orchestra reverently. An additional bonus to the more relaxed atmosphere this would generate, you could earn more money by selling drinks and snacks to the audience.

Ola

[J.c. Sherman]

Are professional orchestras in the US typically non-profit organizations?

Don't they employ for-profit musicians?

Typically, yes. And yes. But Non-profit doesn't mean no profit... means that profit is invested into the organization rather than shareholders. The Shareholders are the community, held in trust by the board.

Why are they non-profit? Typically, and this is a sadness on many levels, because they cannot operate successfully as for-profit ventures. There are interesting exceptions which may make some cringe; Andre Rieu and others... and why? They give an audience a refined product that is marketable and interesting to a wide audience.

This is not often the mission of a modern "classical" (or even POPS) orchestra. If said organizations charge what it costs to pay professional musicians and the entity as a whole, they typically find they have an astronomical ticket price vs. the number of seats they can sell. They can't fill stadiums, and concert halls have a finite number of seats and orchestras have a finite number of patrons, often less than that capacity.

Gabe is right on all accounts; I've also been in non-profit orchestra work for years as well... and he's smarter than me There needs to be a unique product.

A board doesn't have to be a BS organization. It shouldn't be dragged down by minutia and attempt to micromanage; I've seen disastrous consequences several times by boards so driven.

"A committee is a life form with six or more legs and no brain" - Lazarus Long/Robert Heinlein. Often true, but if they keep their mission and artistic vision as a board clear - supporting the mission financially and with good governance - then they can be useful and successful.

J.c.S.

[Wes Krygsman]

Hi Bryan,
We spoke at length during NERTEC at Montclair State a few weeks ago about some stuff that I had ideas for but was not in a position to try them out. Feel free to use any of what we spoke of and report back if it works. Thank you for such a great conversation that day. Really made me think even more.

[Scott Sutherland]

Hi Bryan,

I would suggest you look up Michael Allen in the Denver area. He has a ton of wonderful ideas regarding this topic and had begun some work on an organization called the Philharmonic Project Orchestra, which seemed to have the right approach to success in the current market. Unfortunately, the Philharmonic Project didn't get off the ground for many reasons, none of which were a reflection of the business model or vision for the organization.

These troubles in the orchestral world are part of the reason I'm in the popular chamber music business!

Good luck!

[Kevin Hendrick]

Do you know anyone who OWNS an orchestra? That would probably qualify as a for-profit organization.

Ken F.

I've never met him, but I think Bill Gates might qualify:

http://msorchestra.org/

... even if he did turn down one of the trombone chairs ...

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Bill-Gat ... 8534.shtml

[tclements]

Bryan, call me....

[sloan]

Keep these two principles in mind:

a) the most important thing is money. Without money, the orchestra goes under.

b) the most important thing is music. Without music, there is no reason for the orchestra to exist.

Any questions?

[miketuba]

Thanks, Scott, for the referral.

A slightly different question is: How does any professional orchestra survive?

• The existence of a top notch orchestra is vital to the overall health of any metropolitan area. The use of the word vital is not casual or hyperbole. Emphasis on 'top notch' - more about that should you wish to hear it.
• A remarkable product marketed with excellence will most likely succeed if the market exists or if a viable market can be created. I did not say an excellent product advertised to the masses. It is expensive and difficult to create a viable market and is wholly dependent on having a remarkable product in the first place. Use of the word 'remarkable' in this statement is also not casual. There are costs involved. The AFofM will not be the cause of the demise of the modern professional orchestra.
• Orchestras do not have expense problems - they have revenue problems. Thank you, Michael Kaiser.
• Strict adherence to mission fulfillment is the cornerstone of any successful organization. Are there any good orchestra mission statements out there? I'm really asking.• Providing employment for musicians is not the mission, vision or purpose of an orchestra. However, employing musicians IS the primary cost of mission fulfillment. This distinction is important and provides an important foundation for other arguments.
• If an orchestra is going to be driven by the vision of its music director, he/she needs to be a part of the community (no fly ins) and needs to buy fully into the next comment.
• Marketing, Programming and Development are the three interdependent ‘legs’ of a successful organization with an orchestral mission. One is not subservient to another - there must be symbiosis. There rarely is.
• Transparency and honesty are vital. Professional orchestras, as currently configured, are typically 501(c)3. As such (and if they were truly being held accountable), the operation of an orchestra is a public trust.
• All primary internal stakeholders of an orchestra should/must read 'The Art of Possibility' by Ben and Roz Zander. Then take Rule Number 6 to heart. Music is supposed to be fun, damn it.

I can go on - for days. I've spent the last 8 years deeply immersed in this subject (18 if you count the myriad experiences leading up to the last eight).

[arminhachmer]

[Ken F.[/quote]
I've never met him, but I think Bill Gates might qualify:

http://msorchestra.org/

... even if he did turn down one of the trombone chairs ...


Boy, the stuff you learn on the tubenet...
Thanks Kevin,
Armin

[Tom]

Here's a really different way to operate an orchestra (at least in the United States)...

http://www.svsummersymphony.org/

Most are not aware that this is 100% privately funded and their concerts are free to audience members.