Tuba vs. Bass Guitar

[iiipopes]

Parkinson's Disease. A few years ago, a guy came to community band who had the bad luck to suffer from Parkinson's. His embouchure had deteriorated, and he had noticable shakes. Playing any brass instrument was out of the question, despite all of his decades as a trombone player. But he could still anchor both hands on a bass guitar and play the parts. In his case, I am very, very glad that we were all able to work something out, because he was a great musician who was having a hell of a time otherwise coming to terms with his medical condition. With his superior musicality he was able to adapt almost immediately to just the right blend and balance, and really added to the band. It added a definite positive facet to concerts. I sat right beside him; we became good friends; and community band became one of his highlights of the week for the year or so he was able to play with us before moving to another location to be closer to family.

As we all know, most modern concert band charts have a DB part. They're not always just a mirror of the tuba part. So we actually got to hear some of the parts that 99 44/100% of concert bands never get to hear.

[sousaphone68]

My own view would be if the composer arranger has scored for an electric bass then it is needed and welcome. If your band has enough tuba players then a bass guitar should not be playing tuba parts if there is not a bass guitar part called for.
If the bass guitar is drowning out other sections then there are two poor musicians at work the bass guitar and the director.
Only once in 30 years have I been asked to play an electric bass part on the tuba from a wind band arrangement of Fame hot lunch jam it contained a riff that was not in the tuba part and we did not have a bass guitarist. So I don't see why a bass guitar needs to play a tuba part if the player is enjoying playing with your band then maybe encourage him to double on another instrument maybe he plays another band instrument from high school or college.

To echo other posters it's your community band either ask the director to explain his vision/reasons or ask via the management.

[Wyvern]

One of the bands I play with has a bass guitar join us for concert each year where we play with choir and the choral parts include a bass guitar part. He then of course plays everything, tuba parts in other pieces. I hate it! I think it spoils the overall sound and often feel we're being drowned out and no point in there being tubas.

In another band I play, there was a young woman came along and played bass guitar for short while, but thankfully the conductor soon got her to move onto flute

[tubatooter1940]

I have a Fender Precision Bass guitar and a Crate amp but if I have to haul equipment, I'd rather mic my tuba with a SM57 mic on a tripod boom stand through a JBL 300 watt EON with the horn turned down.
I can relax and keep up with an amped guitar. Solos are much more satisfying with a tuba that can play long tones.
toots

[iiipopes]

My own view would be if the composer arranger has scored for an electric bass then it is needed and welcome.

In high school we had a couple of charts that specifically called for electric bass, and I got to play the part. One was a movie medley, the other a concert piece. Yes, they did sound great. More recently, I've seen some charts with a hybrid part called "Convertible Bass Line." It seems from looking at those parts that they are made for either bass guitar or pizz DB.

[dantetuba]

Hello,
As many know I live in Brazil, recently I have a project with my band to replace the Bass Guitar by Tuba, this video used a octave pedal, I mean, every note I play is a sounding octave to down.
Pretty cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak_2fBeWrMA" target="_blank

Thanks

[tuba.bobby]

I think electric bass in a brass band is cheesy, but I think some bands lean towards a cheesy repertoire, so that might be perfectly OK - maybe the instrumentation is perfectly suited to the repertoire.

Whyyyyy would anyone anyone in their right minds put an electric bass guitar in a brass band?!

[tubaforce]

Hi!
The main reason I've seen electric Bass or Keyboard Bass in "Concert Bands" is the lack of a Tuba player! Desperate Band Directors are just trying to fill out the bottom of their tiny Band in their tiny School district! Many of them have no idea how to EQ the amp for optimum sound! As a student, I carried a Tuba and a Bass rig into the gym for pep-band, using the Tuba for the banner and fight song.
A few enterprising Educators I know recruit Bass players for conversion to Upright Bass. Players with a decent ear could adjust rather easily to the longer scale>
Over the last 20 years or so, technology as produced some great pickup systems for acoustic instruments. The Bp 100 being one of the early successes, especially for pizzicato playing! With proper preamps and equalization, one can successfully amplify an Upright Bass, or Electric Upright Bass, with good results for both arco and pizzicato playing!
Any Band Director desperate enough to use Electric Bass (except the odd movie or pop score), should invest in an EUB! Unfortunately, the 34" scale models will run $3,000.00 and up, but your +-42" scale EUB from N.S. Design is around $1,500.00 with FIVE strings, from Gollihur Music and others!
I routinely double on Bass and Tuba in a fine Wind Ensemble. I usually use my 5-string Double-Bass (you have to have 5-strings for Grainger and a few others...) "enhanced" through my Mini Mark amp, with great results! I broke my foot late last year at work, and with a lot of help from a 10-Band MXR EQ, I was able to perform our entire spring concert (every piece had a String Bass part, so I didn't need to haul a Tuba!) sitting down with my NS Design EUB!
My point is that, at best, Electric Bass should be a stop gap, not a permanent addition in a Concert Band setting! You can use flatwound strings, EQ the bejeebers out of 'em, but 99% of the time they're too loud (Director's fault) and not appropriate sounding, even as a String Bass substitute, especially for arco parts! And while I'm at it, the upper octave on parts labeled "Basses" are intended for String bass, not EEb Tuba!!!

Al

[Donn]

You can use flatwound strings, EQ the bejeebers out of 'em, but 99% of the time they're too loud (Director's fault) and not appropriate sounding, even as a String Bass substitute, especially for arco parts!

That's a key point, for sure. Especially if it's to replace the string bass - a string bass isn't going to be an overwhelming presence in a normal size concert band, and there are some qualities of attack and sustain that aren't naturally similar. I think the sound is a little more natural if I turn the pickups down and play harder, but then I have an old hollow body bass and I guess there's a chance this wouldn't quite so well with a P-bass.

And while I'm at it, the upper octave on parts labeled "Basses" are intended for String bass, not EEb Tuba!!!

In the band music I have, it couldn't be more obvious that they're for tuba, bass tuba if there is one. A normally tuned string bass would be taking octaves all the time on that part, but the written divisions are about what it would take to keep a 3-valve Eb bass out of trouble.

[pdonoh]

I agree there is no place for an electric bass when a tuba is present. I've been in a small concert band for years and this past year a bass showed up doubling my part. I don't like it, its redundant, they can't get the shadings, the dynamics, etc. I stay in this band for reasons other than musical fulfillment, but a bass guitar could be what drives me out.

[SousaSaver]

I place using a bass guitar or keyboard to mimic tuba parts into the same classification as using a drum set instead of a percussion section. All it takes is a glance to the upper left corner of the music to determine what instrument the part was written for.

... or a drum machine. YUCK.

There is no place for a bass guitar in a WIND ensemble, just as there is no place for Tuba in a punk rock group. I say this as a huge fan of punk rock as a genre.

A very SKILLED bass player can play bass guitar with a wind ensemble because they will properly know how to tune, blend and adjust without sticking out or overpowering. These people are very rare.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong...

[SousaSaver]

You can use flatwound strings, EQ the bejeebers out of 'em, but 99% of the time they're too loud (Director's fault) and not appropriate sounding, even as a String Bass substitute, especially for arco parts!

That's a key point, for sure. Especially if it's to replace the string bass - a string bass isn't going to be an overwhelming presence in a normal size concert band, and there are some qualities of attack and sustain that aren't naturally similar. I think the sound is a little more natural if I turn the pickups down and play harder, but then I have an old hollow body bass and I guess there's a chance this wouldn't quite so well with a P-bass.

While I agree Donn, this is sort of a tenuous point. String Bass parts mostly double Tuba and Bassoon parts right? It's been my experience that even with the greatest amount of control, if there is more than one Tuba, the String Bass sound gets swallowed by the Tuba sound and you even miss the "feel" of the String Bass. I don't know...

[Donn]

Could be, but either way, if the electric bass guitar is more prominent in the mix, then it sure isn't playing the double bass part the way the arranger presumably ought to have expected. My hunch is that this actually happens in every single case where an electric bass is allowed to play, but still it might be a kind of moral high ground from which to hassle the director - you know, like, not that we have anything against electric bass guitar per se, perfectly valid idea you had there Mr. Bone Head Director, just wishing to honor the intentions of the arranger. (Assuming EBG plays the DB part. If it's on the tuba part, then there isn't any point in talking to the director, you just have to decide whether you will live with this dishonor or not.)

In my brief experience, I was playing against several tubas, but they were good players and the sound level wasn't out of control. I also played Eb contrabass clarinet in that band, often on tuba parts. Above forte a tuba section can pretty much drown those instruments out, so I guess they can only be effective in a band that sometimes plays below forte.

[tubaforce]

Hello again!
The String Bass is included to add attack to the Bass line, and as the contra voice of the Clarinet Choir. My son is a gifted contra clarinet player, and the paper clip BBb he's played for 13 years included literature outlining it's purpose, replacing the need to score for String Bass as part of the Clarinet Choir! When I play arco passages along with my son, I can hear the similarities in timbre and tone between the two instruments! I was first asked years ago if I could "bump" my volume a bit while playing Double Bass. Normally one can only "feel" the Bass, except in quiet passages. Wooden floors are great conductors of that "feel". Anyway, the Wind Ensemble I play with had only two Tuba Players, including myself, for an upcoming concert. My section mate plays a 2-J, and 1/2 of the program had important String Bass parts! The one Tuba and myself just were not enough to carry the bottom of the group, so I started using my Big Band set up to augment the sound! My amp is an amazing little tool, with two 6' woofers, and a tweeter! Not your 15/18" woofer and 1000 watts! Arco was a bit of a challenge, but trimming the high mid and treble frequencies helped a lot!

As to that upper part, I'll concede some upper octave lines are intended for Bass Tuba, but I have read plenty of parts for
'Basses" with String Bass only indicated at times...

Al

[Rick Denney]

String Bass parts mostly double Tuba and Bassoon parts right? It's been my experience that even with the greatest amount of control, if there is more than one Tuba, the String Bass sound gets swallowed by the Tuba sound and you even miss the "feel" of the String Bass. I don't know...

Sometimes the string bass part is a really important part of the effect. Russian Christmas Music comes to mind. Getting the right effect on tuba is quite challenging, and goodness knows most of us have heard the wrong effect in that work.

A string bass has a quality of subsonic penetration on the attack that is very difficult to match on tuba. It's almost a thump, but with a pitch and sustain. But getting that same thump quality on an electric bass is also pretty difficult (the sustain is easier), and it would take a really good bass player to make it effective.

Of course, lots of band music writes for a full instrumentation because it's intended for school situations where the desire is to keep everyone busy. I suspect that's why there are such things as arco string bass parts in band music, which do not, it seems to me, add a unique voice to the ensemble.

And in many bands, the tuba players jump on the string-bass cues even when a string bass player is present. So, let's not pretend musical purity here.

Rick "who usually reads the string bass parts because they often have different stuff than the tuba parts" Denney

[Donn]

not enough to carry the bottom of the group

The words on the sign posted at the beginning of the slippery slope.

For some people, maybe most, certain kinds of music are improved by adding more bass, no matter how much there already was. Once the electric bass guitar gets to be seen as a solution, you're doomed. That might be a good reason to learn to mike your tuba, but probably better to bail on directors who have this problem.

[tubaforce]

Hi, Donn, et.al.!
That "Thump" or "Thunk" is the essence of pizzicato playing! As to the slippery slope Donn mentioned, I couldn't agree more! I've already had one Director joking about turning my Bass up "2 or 3 Tubas..."! That is certainly not appropriate! If it's got to be that loud, then the subtleties of the String Bass aren't subtle at all! I might as well be thumping a fretted Bass w/roundwound strings through a bi-amped stack!!! I still have one 24-J if more bottom is needed!

Al

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I've played string bass for the last two years with the excellent local university wind ensemble. They program mostly modern wind ensembles works and when there is a string bass part I find that, with a skilled composer, there are many nice additions.

It's doesn't always double the tubas. In many cases it functions more like a low woodwind (see the excellent wind ensemble arrangement of Hindemith's Symphonic Metamorphosis, for instance). In those two years, the only time I've "doubled the tuba part" was on Sousa's Stars and Stripes Forever and even then I edited the part for pizzicato in the quiet strains and arco in the loud ones. It worked fine. I wouldn't have bothered except that it was a sort of "encore" piece at the end of a concert and it would have been more distracting to get up and leave.

Electric bass? Very little use for it in a band. The arrangement of Frank Zappa's Dog Breath Variations comes to mind as a piece that uses electric bass effectively in that genre. I can't think of another. Doubling the tuba parts with an electric instrument (bass, or even worse, "bass keyboard" )? No.