wasting taxpayer money during severely challenging times

[noahthemok]

When I was in high school we had 3 sousaphones donated to us by a much larger school in our district. They weren't in great condition (or even good) by any means, but they were still the best we had. 3 years later we had them completely refurbished (on the house from the county for some reason) and looked and played just like new. I don't understand why these schools would just throw those sousas out. All it is is a complete waste!

[Dan Schultz]

.... It is shameful to waste anybody's money especially money that isn't your own, however,
In California schools rarely buy sousaphones. Band booster's associations do......

It doesn't make any difference where the money came from. I contend that there is only so much money available whether it be from private or public sources. It could have gone for other useful things.... LIKE TEACHING MUSIC!

Most of the horns I refurbish and sell are 'rescued' from public schools. Most all are still playable but just cosmetically challenged. There's absolutely no reason why music instruments can't be maintained properly and used for many years. The rage now seems to be buying as cheaply as possible... further adding to the woes of our 'disposable society'. There are going to be one heck of a bunch of two-year-old horns out there that have to be replaced shortly. No parts and no money to fix them. But... they always seem to come up with bucks for new (cheap) stuff.

[The Big Ben]

Could be a case of "if you don't use all the money we give you, that means you don't get any more next year."

Back when I was teaching photography in my school. I made that mistake. Once. I was careful with my money and managed to 'bank' about $500 by being frugal in my equipment purchases. The $500 was sitting in my account in June and I figured (incorrectly, I found out) that I would be frugal again and, at the end of the next year, I would have about $1000 ready to spend on needed improvements. Silly me. The next fall, when I got the first accounting of the available funds, 'my' $500 wasn't there. I was told, "By law, all accounts must be zeroed out in July." They had no idea what my $500 was spent on.

A load of tommyrot, if you ask me.

[scottw]

While still a band director in public school, I tried to maximize our meager budget by attempting to buy good quality used instruments. You just KNOW where that got me! I discovered that you can't get 3 competitive bids on used horns, and thus you can't buy them. The fact I would have more than doubled the number of horns obtained for the same paltry money mattered not to the powers that be.

[toobaa]

So, is it the big, bad government or just one stupid music teacher+principal here? So school A bought new sousaphones and school B had school A's sousaphones repaired. Is that much different than school A repairing its own sousaphones and school B having to buy new ones?

As a teacher dealing with computer technology, i've found it's always easier to buy new computers (through grants or other means) than it is to get money to repair or upgrade the old ones. Last year i suggested a $200 upgrade to each computer in one lab (after all, the case and power cord really don't wear out) but the effort required to implement that far outweighed the simple paperwork to buy (nearly) equivalent new computers through the state's purchasing "power", though the cost was more than thrice as much. Plus now the administration could brag they had "new" computers. I suspect it's much the same with instruments. Or lab equipment. Or custodial mops. Or gas-fired boilers.

The band students getting the morale boost are probably not the same as the ones that did the damage who graduated or dropped-out. Is there a solution to this age-old problem? Could the parents of the students who borrowed/used the instruments be held responsible? Or would the principal just cave in and go buy some more new shiny sousaphones?

But i'd be happy with your B+ effort, you do nice work.

[Dan Schultz]

..... I discovered that you can't get 3 competitive bids on used horns, and thus you can't buy them. ....

This is true. How many times have you seen that three competitive bids are truly for the same deal? You have to also rate the vendor and the service. It makes no sense whatsoever to purchase equipment from sources hundreds (maybe thousands) of miles away if you can get descent service and pricing (maybe not the lowest pricing) from local vendors.

Of course.... if you only have enough money to buy Jinbao... then it really doesn't matter who you buy from, does it?

[bisontuba]

Joe-
I use to feel the same way about the money schools used on instruments until I see every school in this area ( and remember this is Western New York--so you can't use a snow covered field for many months of the year) having to have an artificial turf field for sports at over $1M+, and having to install a new lighting system for Local cable TV, and installing a High Def Scoreboard--all the while cutting back on teachers. I have heard the same from music teachers too--use it, or loose it--as far as your band instrument budget goes. Craziness....
mark

[Mark]

Very wasteful. Just think of all the hammers and toilet seats that could have been purchased with those tax dollars.

1 each.

[SousaSaver]

The point of these pictures is not to brag about my repair skills. Basically, this is some "B+" work that I did on an extremely beat-up King silver sousaphone. (The repaired bell that goes with it has already been given back to the person who brought it, along with a bunch of other repaired bells).

You're being modest. That is better than "B+" work. You do fine work. I watch you and a handful of other people in an attempt to make myself better.

Just my 2 cents.

Also, I agree about government waste in this sort of fashion. My shop recently bought some Sousas that once belonged to the military that required maybe 3 hours of work (including a cleaning). Included with these Sousas was a PRISTINE Bach 37 Trumpet in a flight case that was missing a finger button. Why did they sell these? Would it not have been a better more fiscally prudent decision to repair them?

I once heard (so this may or may not be true) that it is easier to replace items than it is to have them repaired. I don't know if this is true or not and it certainly doesn't make any sense.

I wish I knew...

(these ramblings are just my opinion...I could be wrong.)

[tbn.al]

I was once on the board of directors of a large Band Boosters Association in Cobb County Ga. We raised almost $200K each year. The Board of Education gave us $4K each year. They did provide teachers and buildings, but that is all. Furthermore the ownership of the instruments purchased passed to the school as soon as they were purchased. Yes we did have a problem getting instruments repaired in a timely fashion even in a major metro area. In many cases we had to buy extras so that the kids had something to play while necessary repairs were made. This is not just a music problem down here. As a parent of a jock as well, I found that the athlectic programs were more expensive to the parents than band. Virtually no tax support outside of teachers and basic facilities. When we wanted indoor batting cages for the baseball team we had to fund the entire project to the tune of $100,000. As soon as it was up, it belonged to the school. But I am convinced this is the way it should be. Taxpayors should not be buying baseballs or marching uniforms.

[Dan Schultz]

..... Taxpayors should not be buying baseballs or marching uniforms.

In the early beginning of this country... there was no public education. If you wanted your kid to learn mathematics or to write... you hired the best you could afford to teach them. If they were taught music... the parents bought the lessons and the instrument.

I suppose the modern public school system has some merits. At least the kids can get free lunches during the summer when school is out! We would have a REALLY stupid society without a few 'smart folks' dictating what needs to be learned and what doesn't.

Indiana is on the verge of instituting a voucher system that will allow public monies to be used to fund a kids education in a private school.

[bisontuba]

HI-
After looking at prices of new sousaphones (quite an education, I must confess)--fiberglass, brass, silver etc--whether Conn, King, Jupiter, Yamaha, etc.--it really made me begin to think. Just as someone posted with computers in school systems, maybe we are getting to the age of why spend $5-6 grand on something like a sousaphone when you can get a Chinese sousaphone for a 1/4 or a 1/3 of the price----and if it falls apart or is need of a major overhaul in 5 years, just buy new ones, and if something like a new 'leadpipe,' for example, prior to the 5 year period, is needed, I am sure that in a year or two, they will be available (COMMON PARTS I AM TALKING ABOUT--like leadpipes, valve caps, water keys, etc.)--why pay high prices and then pay repairman big bucks on student horns to 'OVERHAUL' (PLEASE--NO SLAM INTENDED AT ALL TO REPAIRMAN/NAPBIRT)--just as with computers, when time to update, cheaper to update (ie--'new')--and please, no slams on the Chinese instruments--I think school sports teams use Nike products and get money from Nike--aren't Nike products made in the Far East? Could this alter the future of student/school band instrument repairman on 'OVERHAULING'--NOT repairing-instruments? Just a few random thoughts while watching the hot dog eating contest on ESPN...

mark

[sloan]

I was once on the board of directors of a large Band Boosters Association in Cobb County Ga. We raised almost $200K each year. The Board of Education gave us $4K each year. They did provide teachers and buildings, but that is all. Furthermore the ownership of the instruments purchased passed to the school as soon as they were purchased. Yes we did have a problem getting instruments repaired in a timely fashion even in a major metro area. In many cases we had to buy extras so that the kids had something to play while necessary repairs were made. This is not just a music problem down here. As a parent of a jock as well, I found that the athlectic programs were more expensive to the parents than band. Virtually no tax support outside of teachers and basic facilities. When we wanted indoor batting cages for the baseball team we had to fund the entire project to the tune of $100,000. As soon as it was up, it belonged to the school. But I am convinced this is the way it should be. Taxpayors should not be buying baseballs or marching uniforms.

Take this to its logical conclusion: such activities should not be based in (taxpayer supported) schools.

[Bob Kolada]

At least on the reserve side, there are (imo) major issues with military instruments. People who don't play that well, don't play that often (given the nature of the organization), don't understand instrument repair (I know I don't and didn't receive any of the training I was told I was!),... demand expensive, high end instruments.
My unit has 4 Miraphone 187's. A few need a little bit of work; probably no more than an hour or 2 each by a good tech. Instead of doing that, they get to sit around while 2 new and therefore expensive PT6's get ordered (note also the new Greenhoe bass trombone and 3 Besson euphoniums; we only have 1 euph player now).

Goverment horns should be provided but all the high end horns are rather silly. What's wrong with a few 2341's, 1 or 2 2280's, and several 88H's and a new 62H (or Kanstul, or Bach,...)? They will meet 80% of the needs of the musicians, are easy to find and to find parts for, and (for me a big point) are American built horns for American military bands. I know that the American industry is lacking with regard to several usable instruments (baritone sax, bass tuba,...) but when quality affordable American horns fit the need they should be the first instruments considered.

Part of the problem is the fear that if the allocated finances are not used they will be reduced next year. It's reasonable enough but is being approached in the wrong way.

Five 88H's, one 62H/50Bwhatever, two 2280's, three 2341's, and possibly a bass tuba from out of country (or the Kanstuls) would save a -huge- amount of money over a bunch of Shires (my band actually has Yamahas for "concert tenors" and straight Bach 36's for marching and jazz), Greenhoes, Bessons, and PT's and most likely be more versatile instruments as well.

[The Big Ben]

Part of the problem is the fear that if the allocated finances are not used they will be reduced next year. It's reasonable enough but is being approached in the wrong way.

Watch out, Bob... Bloke had some damning words about this earlier in the thread...

[sloan]

Those $600 hammers and toilet seats are simply ways to cover costs for black ops. Wonder what kind of black ops that band director had to cover?

DCI