Just curious--re. JinBao

[tubaforce]

Is there a Mr. Schiller in the engineering department?

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Well, I have heard from several current Schiller 5v CC rotary tuba owners, and they concur that their valves move in the same direction--so I checked out Jim Laabs website--here is a close up of their horn:



So I did remember correctly--but now this raises some questions--and I agree with Jonathan/Neptune--are JinBao horns jobbed out--who makes Schiller's clones--does everyone over there just make parts and horns when needed for whoever needs them and stamps their names on them? Questions, questions, questions......

mark

PS Also when I A/B the horns--the Schiller and my silver JinBao, they look almost alike but different braces are used--on the Schiller, holding the lyre screw and the adj. thumb ring are 'diamond' shaped braces--on the JinBao are 'round' braces--NO big deal, but each from a different shop? Again, questions, questions,.....

[bort]

On that tuba, the 5th valve is different than 1--4.

[Kevin Hendrick]

On that tuba, the 5th valve is different than 1--4.

The linkage and stops are on the other side -- they have to be, because 5th is a "pull" linkage, whereas 1-4 are "push" links -- but the rotor turns the same direction as 1-4 do.

[bort]

On that tuba, the 5th valve is different than 1--4.

The linkage and stops are on the other side -- they have to be, because 5th is a "pull" linkage, whereas 1-4 are "push" links -- but the rotor turns the same direction as 1-4 do.

AH! Well, what do ya know.

[T. J. Ricer]

Not to beat a dead horse, but just in case anyone wants to "feel" the difference that Mark is talking about. . . try blowing (not buzzing) into a tuba that has the rotors set up 2 and 2. First press down valves one and/or two while you are blowing, then push down valves 3 and/or 4 while blowing. There is some sort of "flap-back" feeling when you press 3 or 4 while blowing as they turn "into/against" the airstream. (maybe try 1 and 2 together versus 3 alone, if you think the difference might be slide length).

As Al mentioned, we're buzzing and not blowing through the horn, so this may have no relevance to any change in playing characteristics, but it is a way to see that there is a difference of some sort caused by the direction the rotors turn.

I poo-pooed any sort of change that the valve direction could make until someone offered to pay for the work if I didn't feel a difference. I did feel a positive difference after the valves were turned on my F tuba and have since had this done to another horn with similarly positive results. It is complete Voodoo to me; I have no idea how it works, but I do feel a difference. . . maybe it's just something in the air in Upstate New York! No one has said that the "old school" way doesn't work - it obviously does - but some people do feel a small change and feel that that change is worth the cost.

As always, YMMV,

--T. J. "who feels the same way about Amado waterkeys, even if the only measurable change is the lack of corks to replace" Ricer

[bisontuba]

Did I hear someone claim that the India-sousaphone company is hired to do the close-tolerance work of the other Asian manufacturers?

I thought JinBao was buying India...and such lovely picture posts by DP.......

[tubaforce]

Not to beat a dead horse, but just in case anyone wants to "feel" the difference that Mark is talking about. . . try blowing (not buzzing) into a tuba that has the rotors set up 2 and 2. First press down valves one and/or two while you are blowing, then push down valves 3 and/or 4 while blowing. There is some sort of "flap-back" feeling when you press 3 or 4 while blowing as they turn "into/against" the airstream. (maybe try 1 and 2 together versus 3 alone, if you think the difference might be slide length).

As Al mentioned, we're buzzing and not blowing through the horn, so this may have no relevance to any change in playing characteristics, but it is a way to see that there is a difference of some sort caused by the direction the rotors turn.

I poo-pooed any sort of change that the valve direction could make until someone offered to pay for the work if I didn't feel a difference. I did feel a positive difference after the valves were turned on my F tuba and have since had this done to another horn with similarly positive results. It is complete Voodoo to me; I have no idea how it works, but I do feel a difference. . . maybe it's just something in the air in Upstate New York! No one has said that the "old school" way doesn't work - it obviously does - but some people do feel a small change and feel that that change is worth the cost.

As always, YMMV,

--T. J. "who feels the same way about Amado waterkeys, even if the only measurable change is the lack of corks to replace" Ricer

As I replied to Mark, the important thing is that YOU get positive results! I learned to question conventional "wisdom" from a Wood Wind Prof. who was run out of Eastman years ago. The prof. one Ray Wheeler, and a friend took xrays of the friend's barium coated mouth and tongue while playing. The film disproves many of the common "facts" about the placement/shape of the tongue while playing and tonguing. I believe Ray Wheeler is gone, and his partner in crime had been long gone in the 80's...from cancer! I don't wish to question every conception we hold dear. I just want to come up with better, more accurate information...And encourage intelligent discussion along the way!
Al

[pgym]

Not to beat a dead horse, but just in case anyone wants to "feel" the difference that Mark is talking about. . . try blowing (not buzzing) into a tuba that has the rotors set up 2 and 2. First press down valves one and/or two while you are blowing, then push down valves 3 and/or 4 while blowing. There is some sort of "flap-back" feeling when you press 3 or 4 while blowing as they turn "into/against" the airstream. (maybe try 1 and 2 together versus 3 alone, if you think the difference might be slide length).

Which begs several questions, viz.:

do you feel a "flap-back" when you press 3 and/or 4 while blowing, then press down 1 and/or 2?

do you feel a "flap-back" when you blow into the open horn, then press down one or more valves?

if you reverse 1 and 2 to the direction of 3 and 4, do you feel a "flap-back" when you press down 1 and/or 2 while blowing into the open horn?

pgym "who can create a 'flap-back' on a rotor horn (or a piston horn, for that matter), regardless of the rotor setup, by depressing the rotors slowly enough, and therefore suspects that the 'flap-back' is due to the momentary interruption of the airstream as the rotor passes from fully open to fully closed to fully open, rather than the airstream changing direction"

[Dan Schultz]

About the rotors turning one direction or the other.... There's not much air actually moving. Just sound waves. And... sound waves don't care much how much restriction (if any) is present. This ain't water flow were talking about here.

[tubaforce]

About the rotors turning one direction or the other.... There's not much air actually moving. Just sound waves. And... sound waves don't care much how much restriction (if any) is present. This ain't water flow were talking about here.

+2, and an "Amen" from the Choir!
Al