Slide Pulling

[Rick Denney]

Firstly, the physical things one does when playing are practiced to the point of being unconscious, so they do not interfere with the things a tuba player should think about during performance. Any pro should be in that category, which is why they talk about where the beer is cheap.

Speaking of pros, it is Gene Pokorny who reminds us that we don't adjust slide lengths to play in tune. We can do that with our chops if we have the skills we ought to. Instead, we adjust the slide length to bring the instrument into tune with the pitch we are buzzing, so that we don't undermine the tone by lipping the pitch away from the center of the resonance.

There are many ways to accomplish that, and automatic compensation is just one. And it only solves a few specific problems (the 2-4 combination being the main example with a four-valve compensator that bring the compensating loops into the bugle only when the fourth valve is in use). Slide pulling is another way. Bloke has a valve that lowers the pitch by a fraction of a tone for the notes that need it, which he prefers to slide pulling. He can talk all he wants about pros not caring about accommodating different pitch situations, but he still went to the trouble to construct that valve.

Whether I adjust my slides depends on whether 1.) there is a consistent enough pitch in the band to provide a stable target, and 2.) whether I think I adjusting the slide makes resonating the center of the tone at the right pitch easier. So, many times I don't, and sometimes I do. Frankly, my tone isn't good enough even in the center of the resonance to make it that critical.

I once watched and heard Gene play a hymn in the very low register, and he adjusted the fourth-valve slide over a range of about six inches. The tone I heard made it clear why he felt the need to do so.

Rick "slide pulling is done for tone, not pitch" Denney

[Bob Kolada]

But 4th slide pulling in the low register is different than moving 1st an inch. FWIW, the few times I've seen Gene play contrabass I don't believe he's ever used his 5th valve.

[Rick Denney]

But 4th slide pulling in the low register is different than moving 1st an inch. FWIW, the few times I've seen Gene play contrabass I don't believe he's ever used his 5th valve.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize the discussion was limited to moving the first valve slide one inch. And I bet there isn't any more than two or three inches of tubing in Bloke's intonation-adjustment valve.

Rick "who moves his first valve slide two inches when it needs moving" Denney

[normrowe]

I never hear "professional musicians" talk about equal temperament, just intonation, unjust intonation, justsayno intonation, meantone temperament, smokytone temperament, quick temperament, bad temperament, or any other type of temperament. I just see and hear people listening and (usually, thank goodness) making stuff "sound good".

"Professional musicians" (in my experience) talk about stuff like, "Hey, do you want to kill a $4 pitcher of beer at that Mexican place three blocks away during the concerto and intermission ?...Who's driving ?"

Back when I was in Memphis the L.A. Philharmonic low brass did a clinic. One of the demonstrations they did was to play a short excerpt two times and asked what the difference was between them. The answer: one was played in equal temperament and the other in just intonation. So yes, the "professionals" DO talk about it! And apparently it's a significant thing to the folks at that level!!

[normrowe]

But they DID talk about it. I didn't remember who were the top two bones, but I had played with and talked bass trombone with Jeff Reynolds (prior to his LAP days) and used to take lessons from Bobo, so I knew those two. The PO came through Santa Barbara back when I was principal tuba in the SB Symphony and I got a lesson from Abe Torchinsky. Ormandy was there, but I didn't get to keep him from falling down or anything.

[TUBAD83]

+1
I was trying to remember anytime when playing quintet concert band symphonic wind ensemble symphony orchestra and accompanied soloist that I failed to use my ears and sounded out of tune or produced an unacceptable tone no can't think of one never had to pull a slide either.
Correction after initial set up and testing never had to pull a slide while playing.

+1
Both of my tuba instructors taught me how to play the tuba in tune with great tone without resorting to slide manipulation. I'm not knocking it at all--it works fine IF you do it well. However, if you are in a tuba section and you're next to a guy constantly adjusting his slide, imagine what happens to the intonation of the section. Having experienced sitting next to a couple of "slide pullers" over the years, its NOT a fun experience.

JJ

[sousaphone68]

I hope it does not end yet as I am getting some good nuggets and an overview of different playing techniques and styles

[MikeMason]

can we all agree that it is "ideal" to try to buzz a certain pitch into a tuba that is the right length,at that moment,for the pitch?

[Wyvern]

Elephant, I remember you writing very clearing the use of 1st valve slide pulling a way back which I found most informative, but have since forgotten (wish I had bookmarked post!).

Please could you summarise again for us unfamiliar with slide pulling!

[tubaforce]

+1
I was trying to remember anytime when playing quintet concert band symphonic wind ensemble symphony orchestra and accompanied soloist that I failed to use my ears and sounded out of tune or produced an unacceptable tone no can't think of one never had to pull a slide either.
Correction after initial set up and testing never had to pull a slide while playing.

+1
Both of my tuba instructors taught me how to play the tuba in tune with great tone without resorting to slide manipulation. I'm not knocking it at all--it works fine IF you do it well. However, if you are in a tuba section and you're next to a guy constantly adjusting his slide, imagine what happens to the intonation of the section. Having experienced sitting next to a couple of "slide pullers" over the years, its NOT a fun experience.

JJ

Hi!
I have the priveledge of sitting next to a "slide puller" every Thursday night! I rely on him especially when I play String Bass, becuase he is ALWAYS on! He's also one of the finest Bass Trombonists I've ever been around!

Al

[tubaforce]

Guys, the sky is falling.

Someone PLEASE post the long-overdue photo of beer or food. Please.

Perhaps Jonathan has some pictures of pretty Chinese "beer garden maidens", or yummy Chinese food from his Lang visit... ?
Al

[Mark]

When, if ever, any of you who don't pull slides play at the level of the pros who do pull slides, come back and revisist this post. Let us know how you did it.

In the menatime, buy A Treatise on the Tuba by Donald W. Stauffer. There is a section in this book that explains why tubas cannot play in tune without some kind of adjustment while playing.

[Bob Kolada]

I've played with several excellent professionals who don't push/pull slides.

[windshieldbug]

Slide Pulling

[ghmerrill]

In the menatime, buy A Treatise on the Tuba by Donald W. Stauffer. There is a section in this book that explains why tubas cannot play in tune without some kind of adjustment while playing.

Hence the 53-valve "Cerveny" product posted earlier in the thread.

I think that Stauffer's book is great -- a tremendously fun and informative read. But good luck getting a copy. It appears to be long out of print and it doesn't seem that used copies are easily available. I think it was only published by him (Stauffer Press) as a paperback. The inscription in mine is 1992, and I suppose it may be a "collector's item" (though my guess is that he probably personally signed every copy he shipped).

[Wyvern]

I think that Stauffer's book is great -- a tremendously fun and informative read. But good luck getting a copy. It appears to be long out of print and it doesn't seem that used copies are easily available. I think it was only published by him (Stauffer Press) as a paperback. The inscription in mine is 1992, and I suppose it may be a "collector's item" (though my guess is that he probably personally signed every copy he shipped).

Here is quote of the relevant paragraph;

The problem of intonation is one that is ever present to the (discerning) tubist. Several tones of questionable intonation remain on even the finest of tubas because of acoustical problems that are built into the system. Some may be helped by “humoring” or bending the pitch. Other pitches may to too far out to be handled in this manner. The matter of humoring the pitches to improve intonation must be looked upon with a questioning attitude. To depend upon this method alone to rectify faulty tuning on the tuba is, I believe, going beyond the realm of practicability. It is not only difficult to do well, but may affect adversely the basic tone quality.
There seems to be a certain focal point “groove” where a given tone will vibrate with full resonant quality. This is, of course, when the lip and the enclosed air column are vibrating in perfect synchronization. If, for any reason, the length of tubing is not exactly right, the desired frequency may be obtained by forcing the pitch up or down with the lips. Only within certain very narrow limits can this misplacing be done and still retain full, resonant tone that is desired. To go beyond these bounds involves a very definite deterioration in tone quality. A difficulty is thus imposed when the player deliberately bends a tone against its own natural inclination. To add this problem to the already existing ones that harass a performer is indeed a needless practice. The need for humoring can for the most part eliminated by some device to manipulate a slide while performing. If the slide is not the main tuning crook, but is on a valve, then it will affect only the tones that use that particular valve. Elementary, dear Watson! The left hand is usually free to take care of any action of this kind.

[Kevin Hendrick]

In the menatime, buy A Treatise on the Tuba by Donald W. Stauffer. There is a section in this book that explains why tubas cannot play in tune without some kind of adjustment while playing.

Hence the 53-valve "Cerveny" product posted earlier in the thread.

I think that Stauffer's book is great -- a tremendously fun and informative read. But good luck getting a copy. It appears to be long out of print and it doesn't seem that used copies are easily available. I think it was only published by him (Stauffer Press) as a paperback. The inscription in mine is 1992, and I suppose it may be a "collector's item" (though my guess is that he probably personally signed every copy he shipped).

Amazon and alibris both list a few used copies:

http://www.amazon.com/Treatise-Tuba-Don ... 1929263007
http://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwo ... the%20tuba

[PMeuph]

In the menatime, buy A Treatise on the Tuba by Donald W. Stauffer. There is a section in this book that explains why tubas cannot play in tune without some kind of adjustment while playing.

Hence the 53-valve "Cerveny" product posted earlier in the thread.

I think that Stauffer's book is great -- a tremendously fun and informative read. But good luck getting a copy. It appears to be long out of print and it doesn't seem that used copies are easily available. I think it was only published by him (Stauffer Press) as a paperback. The inscription in mine is 1992, and I suppose it may be a "collector's item" (though my guess is that he probably personally signed every copy he shipped).

Amazon and alibris both list a few used copies:

http://www.amazon.com/Treatise-Tuba-Don ... 1929263007
http://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwo ... the%20tuba

So does ABE books...

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... ba&x=0&y=0

[TUBAD83]

When, if ever, any of you who don't pull slides play at the level of the pros who do pull slides, come back and revisist this post. Let us know how you did it.

In the menatime, buy A Treatise on the Tuba by Donald W. Stauffer. There is a section in this book that explains why tubas cannot play in tune without some kind of adjustment while playing.

So you are implying that anyone that does not pull slides can not play at the pro level? Really?
Someone who puts out a book stating his own OPINION should be taken as "gospel" and everyone who does not is not a pro? Really?

Surely you are able to state your opinion without insulting others--right??

JJ

[sousaphone68]

When, if ever, any of you who don't pull slides play at the level of the pros who do pull slides, come back and revisist this post. Let us know how you did it.

In the menatime, buy A Treatise on the Tuba by Donald W. Stauffer. There is a section in this book that explains why tubas cannot play in tune without some kind of adjustment while playing.

It seems you may misunderstood me the point I was trying to make was that the expectations of some posters regarding asian horns was too critical when viewed against the failings of some of the alternatives.
If it came across as my dismissing the need to pull slides then I need to improve my prose skills.
My technique suits the dominant style of tuba and expectations of my conductors where I live and play.
Is it better than yours I don't know have not heard you,have not played a tuba that needed it. Would not buy one that was so out that it required constant pulling as it would not suit my technique or skills.

I have not had the benefit of studying the tuba at third level but have been taught over the years by many professionals and have played with pros and amateurs my tunning was never a cause of concern so both methods obviously work.