.

[Rick Denney]

Yes, the government is loaded with extra dough!

(The Canadian government owes only $600B - vs. US's $14.5T, but only has about 1/10 the number of citizens as compared to the U.S.)

Hey, not all grants are funded by government. In fact, few are. Most bigger and more flexible arts grants are funded by corporations. But you still have to go find them.

Rick "who has applied for a few" Denney

[Rick Denney]

If the purpose is (as Rick Denney suggests) for a couple of students to play on it and learn a bit about the F tuba, surely this one will suffice for that?

I have no problem with the F tuba in question being a budget model, if it is reasonably playable. I played one of those M&M-branded Chinese F tubas at the Army Conference, and it wasn't bad. The F octave was a bit off, and the 5th and 6th valves were backwards from my B&S, but I've played F tubas I liked a lot less that cost a whole lot more. I don't think it takes a world-class F tuba to fulfill the requirements for properly supporting an education program in music performance.

Rick "who did not, of course, suggest exactly what you said I suggested" Denney

[Rick Denney]

so, maybe the school in Canada should apply for a grant from Jinbao...??

One might bet that Jinbao is already searching for places to donate their instruments.

It would not take much effort to explore it. But most big corporations have arts grant programs. The competition is fierce, but I can't imagine that doing the grant application right would undermine anyone's educational experience, even if all their attempts are unsuccessful.

There are other ways, too, including the usual range of local fund-raising activities.

Rick "not recommending victim status" Denney

[Micah Everett]

Go write a grant for it.

Best suggestion yet, one which I pursued a couple of years ago. My school now has new CC and F tubas, a new alto trombone, and a bunch of new beginner instruments for my brass methods class (flute player/future band directors are much more successful learning tuba on a Yamaha YBB-103 than on a beat-up Meinl-Weston 25, btw). Many music departments have almost no money for new equipment these days, but there IS money if you will look for it!

[Uncle Buck]

As I have proposed before (and has been shot down before - by music education students and studio professors alike), I believe that music education degrees (instrumental emphasis) need to drop the "major instrument" concept and move more towards:

- "proficiency" (grade IV solos performed musicially, etc.) on ALL major wind instruments used in high school bands
- more than one conducting class (three or four?)
- abandoning the ridiculous courses over in the education department, and requiring more courses in nuts-and-bolts classroom management, (not just "jock" psychology, but) abnormal psychology (with the widespread drug use in the schools, etc.), musicianship courses (interpretation of melodic line - in the advanced conducting courses, as well as in the all-instruments proficiency studio courses), and stringent keyboard proficiency requirements.

Here is the perspective of someone who's career as a band teacher was a failure. I have no one to blame but myself for my naive approach to teaching band, and for the many ways I wasn't prepared for the job.

Having said that, though, Joe's proposed curriculum would have prepared me for my band teaching career much more thoroughly than the degree I actually received prepared me.

(And then I might have stuck with teaching band, and never realized how much happier I would have been, for both my career and for life in general, if I had quit . . .)

[Chadtuba]

As I have proposed before (and has been shot down before - by music education students and studio professors alike), I believe that music education degrees (instrumental emphasis) need to drop the "major instrument" concept and move more towards:

- "proficiency" (grade IV solos performed musicially, etc.) on ALL major wind instruments used in high school bands
- more than one conducting class (three or four?)
- abandoning the ridiculous courses over in the education department, and requiring more courses in nuts-and-bolts classroom management, (not just "jock" psychology, but) abnormal psychology (with the widespread drug use in the schools, etc.), musicianship courses (interpretation of melodic line - in the advanced conducting courses, as well as in the all-instruments proficiency studio courses), and stringent keyboard proficiency requirements.

Here is the perspective of someone who's career as a band teacher was a failure. I have no one to blame but myself for my naive approach to teaching band, and for the many ways I wasn't prepared for the job.

Having said that, though, Joe's proposed curriculum would have prepared me for my band teaching career much more thoroughly than the degree I actually received prepared me.

(And then I might have stuck with teaching band, and never realized how much happier I would have been, for both my career and for life in general, if I had quit . . .)

I whole heartedly agree with this. I love teaching but was unprepared for a lot of what I was expected to do. At my small state school we took a WW class, brass class, strings, class, and percussion class. If you got to touch more than 2 of the instruments in these methods classes you were very lucky. The basic conducting class was an absolute waste of my time. I learned more on the first day of my TA watching my graduate professor teach his basic conducting class.

[Rick Denney]

Band director mills treat people getting band director degrees as if they are in conservatories (with a "major instrument", "recitals", and all of that). Many people who are getting band director degrees (ie. Music Education - a degree to specifically qualify for a JOB, Mr. Rick Denney) will start thinking of themselves (due to the curriculum) as getting performance degrees, and are then in for quite a let-down when it's time to apply for the low-man-on-the-totem-pole middle school band director job.

First, I was quite specific in talking about performance degrees, not music education degrees. Second, I would be very surprised to learn that anyone in a performance program thinks they are getting a music education degree, or that anyone in a music-ed program thinks they are getting a performance degree. Some aspects are the same (they are both in the same school, after all) but the differences are substantial enough to get the attention even of brain-damaged 20-year-olds. When you look at the curriculum, the programs really are profoundly different.

I have two nieces, one in a performance program and one in a music-ed program. Those two girls certainly have no doubts about the differences.

Much evil results from thinking college is mere job training. The more we try to make it that, the less we achieve the objectives of education. One who is well-trained for a job can do little else. One who is well-educated can do many things beyond their major course of study. Yes, most music-ed programs are designed around training, which is why they end up being a poor education. And, Joe, you outlined many reasons why that is so, and I agree with you. The root of most of those failings of education programs are because they think they need to train teachers rather than educate people who can then teach.

By the way, we all already know the difference between training and education. If your middle-school child comes home and talks about the new sex education class, you might be disturbed a bit, but you'll probably come to terms with it. But if your child comes home all excited (so to speak) about a sex training class, you'll have a different perspective.

No, I don't want to hear (again) about your non-engineer buddy who was better at engineering than any engineer. Such things happen--people overcome their circumstances. But they are the exception, not the rule. It is really difficult to lose common sense and an understanding of the three-dimensional world in engineering school, but sometimes people go into engineering not because they want to be engineers but because they think it's a good gig. Those people are the ones with the least physical sense and they make the worst engineers, by and large. Your friend would certainly not have been damaged by spending some time getting an engineering education.

Rick "thinking teaching trainees have more to overcome than those theoretical engineering students" Denney

[Rick Denney]

argue argue argue

I need a Coke Zero and a bunch of ice. It's too damn hot around here.

I can't stand that Coke Zero stuff. Blech! Even Diet Coke is better than that crap.

Rick " " Denney

[Biggs]

By the way, we all already know the difference between training and education. If your middle-school child comes home and talks about the new sex education class, you might be disturbed a bit, but you'll probably come to terms with it. But if your child comes home all excited (so to speak) about a sex training class, you'll have a different perspective.

I wish more of my collegiate classmates had taken sex training...but I digress.

Philosophically, I agree with most other posters here, particularly Dale and Rick. Unless you are acquiring some kind of government-mandated certification (teaching certificate, license to practice medicine, etc.), going to school has absolutely nothing to do with getting a job. If you want to get a job, get a job. I went to school specifically because I didn't want to get a job. If you want to get a job performing music, I'd suggest getting a job performing music and not a degree in performing music. That's not to say you can't have and benefit from both, but I consider them pretty independent entities.

Some data for the original poster:

I earned my degree in music performance at a large (>30,000 students) public university. Our school of music had, I would estimate, some 400 degree-seeking students, 6-8 of whom were tuba majors at any given time. Our studio owned 3 bass tubas:

1 ancient (but still very playable and quite lovely-sounding) Miraphone 180 F acquired, I believe, when the Earth was cooling
1 older (but, again, extraordinarily well-maintained) Wilson Eb acquired 6 or 7 years ago by a previous professor, who is a Wilson artist
1 new Yamaha 621 F acquired two years ago by the current professor, who is a Yamaha artist

All three were treated with great pride by the students and proved very useful in teaching tuba majors about the literature for and application of their instrument and made regular appearances in recitals, tuba choir, quartets, quintets, and the three orchestras. I learned F tuba on the 180 and was committed enough/intrigued enough/fortunate enough to acquire an F tuba of my very own - I doubt that I would have come to the same decision to buy if I hadn't practiced on the loaner.

I am now a graduate student (in a non-music field) at a large private university with a respected conservatory-style school of music (I, and many others, would consider it one of "the" tuba schools in this country). While I am not seeking a degree in music, I do take lessons, play in a student quintet, and occasionally hang out in the tuba seminar. The school owns improbable specialty instruments (including Wagner tuben...seriously), but the students are generously allowed access to the tubas, cimbassos, and other 'specialty' instruments privately owned by the faculty as they need them. This university has a reputation of having very high tuition and a very privileged student body. All of the tuba majors own their own instruments - almost all of which are high-end models.

The best argument for school-owned bass tubas is that they would facilitate the school's mission to graduate knowledgeable, well-rounded, capable tuba players (if this is not the school's mission, please disregard). I graduated with a music degree being comfortable, if not downright fluent, playing F, Eb, CC, BBb tubas. This was by no means a requirement and certainly more the result of my own desire to expand my tuba horizons, but I wouldn't have been able to reach that point without access to school-owned F and BBb tubas.

If the school's mission is to graduate employable tuba players, bass tuba playing just scratches the surface of useful skills.

Sorry this is long, but I'm a windbag and could have kept going.

[UTSAtuba]

As I have proposed before (and has been shot down before - by music education students and studio professors alike), I believe that music education degrees (instrumental emphasis) need to drop the "major instrument" concept and move more towards:

- "proficiency" (grade IV solos performed musicially, etc.) on ALL major wind instruments used in high school bands
- more than one conducting class (three or four?)
- abandoning the ridiculous courses over in the education department, and requiring more courses in nuts-and-bolts classroom management, (not just "jock" psychology, but) abnormal psychology (with the widespread drug use in the schools, etc.), musicianship courses (interpretation of melodic line - in the advanced conducting courses, as well as in the all-instruments proficiency studio courses), and stringent keyboard proficiency requirements.

+1/Like/TOTALLY AGREE

As a recent graduate of a Music Education program, I could not AGREE WITH YOU MORE! To be fair, I was required two conducting classes (second one was great) that improved my skills. You hit the nail right on the head about the "major instrument" concept. In fact, coming out of school, I had no idea prospective music educators advertised themselves as woodwind, percussion, high brass, and low brass specialists. It's been tough getting a job as a "low brass specialist", considering I can (somewhat) play every other major wind instrument.

Again, Joe, completely agree.

[Rick Denney]

...so the reason for so many mediocre school bands is that their directors are "educated", rather than "trained"?

No, they are trained rather than educated. They know how to follow teaching procedure taught to them in the education classes, which you rightly excoriated. They don't know the subject they are teaching deeply, as you described. When things go wrong, they can only rely on the formulas they learned--they don't know enough about music to create an educational environment for their students. My band directors could conduct great music well enough for its greatness to infect us, play any instrument well enough to demonstrate how to do it reasonably well, and accompany me at solo contest. Not that many can do all that any more.

If the job-training lobby had its way, all courses of study would be that way, not just the education factories.

Rick "who fights this in the engineering world, too" Denney

[J.c. Sherman]

...so the reason for so many mediocre school bands is that their directors are "educated", rather than "trained"?

I'm with Rick - other way around...

J.c.S.

[J.c. Sherman]

I’m often in agreement with Bloke, so often in this thread especially. But I have a couple points I’d like to diverge on (and make a case for Eb too):

1) Why is proficiency on contrabass tuba more important than on bass? Or why should it be achieved on contrabass first?

2) Why is F tuba the only option being really discussed? As a Commonwealth country, wouldn’t Eb have come up as a possibility? Canada’s where I snagged my first Eb, and I personally feel it’s a better option than contrabass tuba could ever be.

3) Yes, contrabass clarinets et al are used in bands… collegiate bands. Rarely do I see them in professional bands. Whereas I regularly play my bass tuba(s) almost solely, and I’ve seen them in professional military groups as well. I really feel they contribute strongly to a great tuba section sound.

4) A great deal of literature calls for bass tuba (thanks Rick!), and we’re expected to cover parts NOT written for tuba at all which are somewhat unreasonable to attempt on a contrabass tuba (ophicleide and French tuba).

5) Before college may be a nice place to procure a full arsenal of tubas if you’re filthy rich; but college is where you learn about your craft and the literature and the art of playing. Having the tools to explore that and THEN make a determination about whether to pursue performance as a career and therefore purchase multiple instruments seems more useful and cost effective.

6) I’ve never met a music education major who was under any delusions that they were performance majors. BUT, Bloke’s ideas for an ed. curriculum are spot-on. But I’ll add that a little knowledge can be dangerous, and I’m too-often struck by the very ludicrous ideas band directors who know so much more than the rest of us about our instruments (just ask them) entertain and proselytize. It’s a wonder some of these kids leave with any ability at all. But they’re utterly convinced of their knowledge and righteousness. It hurts.

7) Write a grant for an Eb.

J.c.S. (who has both degrees)

[TUBAD83]

...so the reason for so many mediocre school bands is that their directors are "educated", rather than "trained"?

No, they are trained rather than educated. They know how to follow teaching procedure taught to them in the education classes, which you rightly excoriated. They don't know the subject they are teaching deeply, as you described. When things go wrong, they can only rely on the formulas they learned--they don't know enough about music to create an educational environment for their students. My band directors could conduct great music well enough for its greatness to infect us, play any instrument well enough to demonstrate how to do it reasonably well, and accompany me at solo contest. Not that many can do all that any more.

If the job-training lobby had its way, all courses of study would be that way, not just the education factories.

Rick "who fights this in the engineering world, too" Denney

Having had many a discussion about this issue with other band directors and pro musicians over the years and from my own experiences as a musician , I have learned a few things:

1) As a potential band director working in a public school system you have 3 basic district types to choose from-- an urban district, a suburban district, and a rural district--each one very different from the others and each one calls for a different set of skills. No music school can ever completely prepare you for every situation you may run into--this is why it is encouraged that graduates find work as an asst. band director at a school with a good established program and further develop his/her craft (and learn how things really work in the "real world" of educating).

2) While it would be great just to concentrate on music courses and not worry about education methods, etc. that is not realistic. You will be expected to teach non-music courses and teach them WELL (especially now in Texas after so many teacher layoffs). Versatility, flexibility, and dedication is a MUST if you hope to be successful.

3) I have known quite a few music performance grads who got into teaching to "get the bills paid" until that 1st orchestra gig shows up--some have done well in teaching but most don't primarily because its not what they truly want to do. Kids are not stupid--if you don't really care about being there, why should they? Alot of directors burn out and instead of leaving, they hang on for the check and the retirement benefits--of course kids pick up on that. Why should they respect you if you don't respect them...or yourself??

JJ

[Bob Kolada]

6) I’ve never met a music education major who was under any delusions that they were performance majors.

I've met several. Isn't this commonly referred to as "music performance lite"?

[bort]

6) I’ve never met a music education major who was under any delusions that they were performance majors.

I've met several. Isn't this commonly referred to as "music performance lite"?

When I was in school, the major "Music Education" was always referred to as a double major in Music and Education (a 5-year program). Technically, it's only 1 major, but it was referred to as a double...

[Bob Kolada]

I agree/disagree with the primary instrument thing with MusEd folks. If you, hopefully, like playing there's nothing wrong with playing your favorite instrument and occasional lessons on that are not a bad idea.

I chose (and quickly dropped out of) music performance for several reasons- I already was playing my horn for (some) money in the military reserves and was somewhat solidly set on eventually transferring to the active component as a career; I had several military benefits that let me go to school for free/close enough to free; and while I would -enjoy- teaching small ensembles and 1 on 1 students had absolutely no interest in teaching a large ensemble, dealing with marching band, dealing with marching band parents,... I dropped out of it mostly due to differing musical concepts and having no desire to go further than the basics in the classroom side.
My musical goals have also changed. I like orchestra/brass quintet/big band/... playing but would rather focus more on the improv/jazz/unusual/... side.

I probably would have made a better educator than some education folks trying to be performance folks. I had already played most of a concert band's instruments to some relatively serious degree and would only have to learn flute, percussion, and perhaps double reeds depending on the size of the school system (I played trumpet through tuba, clarinet and bass clarinet, a little bit of saxophone, and electric bass in high school; I've only seen 2 or 3 double reed players in high school in my entire life which may not be the norm). On the other hand, I know **** all about conducting.

[Bob Kolada]

I did not. Is that the one he bought that I was looking into?

[Slamson]

I have to confess that in recent years I’ve been finding myself agreeing, only in part, with Bloke, moving to the idea that Music Education majors should not NECESSARILY excel in one applied instrument. But I’ve seen far too many applied majors confidently sail through BM, MM, and DMA programs, never doubting that someday they’d nail down a gig – only to discover that each year they’d be competing with hundreds of other players for perhaps a dozen gigs available in the entire country. Tradition, in many schools that don’t carry the panache of Juilliard, Indiana, or Eastman has been that a talented player can continue developing as a player whilst getting that teaching certificate – “just in case” – but of course most of us realize that the odds are that that player is probably going to be a teacher, if they stay in music at all. I think we’d all be surprised at the number of pros that are out there who got an education degree for that reason, but they persevered… but if a performer falls back on their education degree to get a job, does that mean they will be a “disgruntled” teacher? Maybe, but it’s been my experience that band directors get disgruntled for lots of reasons – not enough students, not enough good students, not enough good parents, not enough chances to take home trophies, stupid administrators – the list is long, and being a frustrated player doesn’t make the top ten, from what I’ve seen.

Oh - and in order to stay on topic - every school should have an F - and an E-flat. But then, every school should have the budget to afford one, and since that's not going to happen, it should be placed on the priority list after there's a few good CCs and BB-flats in the stable to accomodate low-income, deserving students.

That being said, I do save my vituperative discourse for those music educators who sometimes use their teaching job as a way to get benefits while they knock themselves out playing club gigs at night – I usually refer to them as “eating musicians”. If you love playing your instrument, by all means, go for it playing in community bands and orchestras makes for a good role model – but after a while, it’s time to face facts, get a rewarding job teaching the next generation to have fun making music, and make as much music by yourself as you can without worrying about whether or not you get paid for it. The day I can’t play for free and enjoy it as much (or more) than when I get a check is the day I start to learn how to play golf.

[Slamson]

My apologies for hijacking a thread, but I feel it necessary to clarify some of my earlier comments.

When I made my remarks about “eating musicians”, I wasn’t referring to just any music educator who also plays for pay… it was, quote, “for those music educators who SOMETIMES use their teaching job as a way to get benefits while they knock themselves out playing club gigs at night”. I have plenty of friends/colleagues who play a lot of gigs,( including my old band director) and I highly respect them as music educators – and for the most part I think that their activity, as I said earlier, “makes for a good role model.” However, part of my gig has been at times to do field observation of student teachers, and I have actually seen student teachers who have been left unattended (yes, that’s illegal in most states…) while their supervising teacher was “out sick”, only to be told by the student teacher that he really had a playing gig that day. Talk about abusing our hard-earned tax dollars!

Speaking of abusing those tax dollars, it’s sad that a state university studio teacher would be so ignorant of the Conservatory system… but it would also be sad if some kid from a poverty-stricken area who never got a chance in high school to excel at an instrument couldn’t get a shot at the next step at an affordable school. Not too many years ago, a report came out noting that in a certain state the average student at a private college or university received more financial support from that state than a student at a state institution. I’m all for limiting study at the Master’s and Doctoral level to the “Crème de le Crème” (we certainly aren’t now), but at the undergraduate level, an occasional “diamond in the rough” shows up at small schools – check out where Jim Self, Rex Martin, and of course Mr. Bell began their college days.

And to make it worth staying in the thread, I know nothing about JinBao tubas, but considering the occasional Alexander, Mirafone, and MeinlWeston Fs that I’ve tried that didn’t play too well, I only just worry that a poor instrument could cause more harm than good… but hey – if they play well, who ever looks at the badge while they’re playing it?