Professional Grade Tubas

[RRW]

******

[ztuba]

Reselling used horns is not the same as dealing. When someone deals horns, they are a dealership for the manufacturer. That means they get new horns for a deal and resell them at a mark up.

[Biggs]

Reselling used horns is not the same as dealing. When someone deals horns, they are a dealership for the manufacturer. That means they get new horns for a deal and resell them at a mark up.

If I understand the OP, he wants to trade in his used tuba in order to purchase a used tuba but was told that they cannot resell (and thus are not interested in) his trade-in despite the fact that they are currently attempting to resell two tubas similar to his trade-in.

If I do not understand the OP, please disregard.

[Walter Webb]

This brings up an excellent question. What is the resale value of JinBao, etc., tubas, and what can the buyer of one of these low-priced beauties expect in a few short years when they go to trade up?

[MikeMason]

Some of my thoughts on this subject.Assuming you buy new,jb186-1700,mira 186-7700.I dont think a 5valve cc tuba that plays like this will ever be worth less than 1k.so lets assume you sell or trade a couple years in and lose 700,though you really havent lost that much because you had the use of a shiny good playing tuba for 2 years,which is not worth zero.Lets say you sell/ trade the real 186 and get 5k,and im not sure ive seen a used mira 186 go for more than that.With all these assumptions,who got the better deal?Hard to compare the non monetary parts such as enjoyment of ownership,better performance,less maintenance cost,etc.But from just money standpoint,the jb186 is the better deal.Used horns obviously dont lose as much value,and i think once the jb hits 1k,it wont go down much more.If Chinese currency values increase,values may be in the early jb purchasers favor.Just my thoughts...

[Wyvern]

Maybe the answer is just the particular model the OP was trying to trade - the M&M TU 400 (JBCB-400) CC has a reputation for bad intonation and only has 4 valves, so is not considered a professional tuba. There is as a result little market for such.

In contrast particularly the Dillon DCB-410 (JBCB-410) CC that is for sale has reputation as one of the best Chinese tubas and with 5 valves is considered a professional model.

So maybe not so much to do with manufacturer as the desirability of the particular model? Remember dealers only want to take used tubas they think they can sell.

[tubaguy9]

Oh the jabs that could be made here...
Honestly...all we can do is speculate.

[tubaforce]

I can't believe anyone has the unmitigated audacity to peddle the 400 after several years of less than favorable press...

Al

[Dan Schultz]

This brings up an excellent question. What is the resale value of JinBao, etc., tubas, and what can the buyer of one of these low-priced beauties expect in a few short years when they go to trade up?

In days gone by... 99% of all tubas were owned by schools with only a few in the hands of professionals. Today... it seems like there is a tuba in every house... thanks mostly to modern marketing. The consumer is easily influenced by promises of 'bigger, better, and cheaper'.

I don't suppose the origin of goods will make much difference. If there were a million used Miraphone 1291 tubas floating around for sale... I don't imagine they would be worth very much.

My question I have is... what's going to become of the tens of thousands of obsolete tubas that are certain to be in a few years? And here we were all worried about getting parts!

I can't think of a single import low brass (other than European and possibly Japanese) that I would consider 'pro stuff'. I just don't see the current Asian offerings becoming 'pro stuff' very soon.

[ghmerrill]

I can't think of a single import (other than European) that I would consider 'pro stuff'. I just don't see the current offerings becoming 'pro stuff' very soon.

That includes Yamaha?

[Dan Schultz]

I can't think of a single import (other than European) that I would consider 'pro stuff'. I just don't see the current offerings becoming 'pro stuff' very soon.

That includes Yamaha?

Yeah... I guess I spoke to soon. There are a couple of Yamaha horns that I would consider pro-quality. Of the low brass, maybe two or three euphs and tubas. Not many, though.

Actually... Yamaha is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Their instruments just a couple of decades ago left a lot to be desired. Some of the Yamaha stuff is pretty respectable these days.

[MikeMason]

Carol Jantsch and Chris Olka both seem to think so...

[ghmerrill]

So how do you feel about Jupiter? Certainly their prices seem high enough to begin to qualify . I'm not sure that they actually aim at the "professional" market except in a kind of half-hearted and episodic way. But they do list some respectable tuba players among their "users" (although I'm sure that at least some of those can be explained as "business arrangements"). And what about the quality of something like the Thayer bass trombone? Does it stack up as a professional instrument?

I really don't know about their reputation in the low brass world (although it seems very good for school instruments), but in woodwinds I think there is no argument that some of the lines are genuinely of professional quality and a lot of pros use them.

So, for example, if you were looking at getting something like a small (3/4) BBb tuba, what would be the quality comparisons among Yamaha, Jupiter, and the current mainland Chinese instruments?

[bisontuba]

Some of my thoughts on this subject.Assuming you buy new,jb186-1700,mira 186-7700.I dont think a 5valve cc tuba that plays like this will ever be worth less than 1k.so lets assume you sell or trade a couple years in and lose 700,though you really havent lost that much because you had the use of a shiny good playing tuba for 2 years,which is not worth zero.Lets say you sell/ trade the real 186 and get 5k,and im not sure ive seen a used mira 186 go for more than that.With all these assumptions,who got the better deal?Hard to compare the non monetary parts such as enjoyment of ownership,better performance,less maintenance cost,etc.But from just money standpoint,the jb186 is the better deal.Used horns obviously dont lose as much value,and i think once the jb hits 1k,it wont go down much more.If Chinese currency values increase,values may be in the early jb purchasers favor.Just my thoughts...

+1
mark

[tubaforce]

So how do you feel about Jupiter? Certainly their prices seem high enough to begin to qualify . I'm not sure that they actually aim at the "professional" market except in a kind of half-hearted and episodic way. But they do list some respectable tuba players among their "users" (although I'm sure that at least some of those can be explained as "business arrangements"). And what about the quality of something like the Thayer bass trombone? Does it stack up as a professional instrument?

I really don't know about their reputation in the low brass world (although it seems very good for school instruments), but in woodwinds I think there is no argument that some of the lines are genuinely of professional quality and a lot of pros use them.

So, for example, if you were looking at getting something like a small (3/4) BBb tuba, what would be the quality comparisons among Yamaha, Jupiter, and the current mainland Chinese instruments?

Jupiter=Boring and OVERPRICED!
Al

[tubamlb]

Hi
The TU M&M 400 is for Elementary , Junior High or an inexpensive starter Tuba to learn CC fingerings
I do have The new 400s with several schools and if use them for what they are , they do the job

To play in a pro. Orch , No

The deprecation is like other Tubas around 30% The first year then levels off
So if you bought say a Miarphone you would lose $2000.00 against $700.00 on a 400

[kamakazekiwi]

Yeah... I guess I spoke to soon. There are a couple of Yamaha horns that I would consider pro-quality. Of the low brass, maybe two or three euphs and tubas. Not many, though.

Actually... Yamaha is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Their instruments just a couple of decades ago left a lot to be desired. Some of the Yamaha stuff is pretty respectable these days.

I don't know too much about Yamaha tubas, I haven't played enough of them to say anything about them, but the newer Yamaha trombones and trumpets are a lot more than respectable. I had a chance to extensively test almost all of the new intermediate and professional Yamaha trombones at a demo, and they were some of the best instruments I ever played. I don't know so much about intonation, but they all responded beautifully with great tone. I would love to have any one of them. (if I could afford it )

The one thing I have heard is that their french horns tune really poorly and don't sound all that great. Although I think that was just accounts of their intermediate/low end pro French horns.

[kamakazekiwi]

I don't think the issue is that tubas are designed poorly, I think the issue is that it's WAY easier to make a trumpet than a tuba. Taking the tuning and tone quirks out of a 3 valve trumpet is light years easier than getting a 6 valve F tuba to play in tune and with great tone over the entire range of the instrument on all of the valves without any weird tendencies. It's just not nearly as simple as a trumpet or trombone.

I also think that there's nothing really wrong with how professional tubas play. The one's I've played on sound beautiful, I certainly can't complain about any of them.

[jamsav]

There are no "Professional Grade" tubas. Never have been. Our market is soooo tiny that our instruments will never merit the type of R&D that trumpets get. The very finest tubas built are roughly equivalent to an excellent HS model trumpet, like a Bach Model 37 Strad from the local music store. Period. The really fine trumpets and horns and trombones that one can purchase today are LIGHT YEARS ahead of the best tubas, and the worst tubas are spittoons, at best.

We accept crap.

We buy it. We rave about it. Then we decide that the hype was greater than the reality, and we sell it, only to buy more poorly designed horns. We accept it. We are Bad Designer Enablers. They love us and our money.

The best tuba I have ever played on was *acceptable* in that it was almost as good as my trumpet was when I was in HS. I still have it and can attest to this. And do not get me wrong here - there is a LOT of crap for sale in the worlds of other instruments. But there are numbers and money and interest enough to support proper acoustical modeling and research so that we are starting to get some astounding brass and have always had some rather excellent choices.

Even the euphonium has had many of its oddities ironed out for decades now. But we keep getting new ideas instead of tweaked designs. We have lots of new models, but many were very poorly designed and play poorly or at least not as well as you would hope given the ridiculous prices charged for them.

Our love of craptastic tubas from China only proves that we are not to be taken all that seriously by the R&D types. They are seeing one thing from all this China hype: We will buy any sort of garbage if it is sold at a Walmart price point.

So why invest in R&D when your market is so ready to embrace crap? Instead of DEMANDING that problems be fixed, instead of organizing boycotts of certain companies until they correct gross pitch and response issues on these new, expensive toys, we just accept the bad playing characteristics and buy horns that are not acceptable, telling ourselves that such massive financial savings makes up for the horn's weaknesses.

Nope. We have never had truly professional instruments by design, just by accident. And we probably never will.

Ready?

Discuss.

Wade- great arguement- thoughtful and provocative- but its not the average community band player who drives R and D - which is primarily who this board is comprised of . When a recognized manufacture tuba cost upwards of 6 grand , the average tubist who is looking to buy a horn , is looking for an appropriate trade off between quality and price .
Do I bring a YAmaYork to community band ? Of course not , but if I was going to earn my living playing and absolutely required a great horn as a prerequisite to landing a job , well, its no different than carrying a student loan if you want a job on Wall street . The economics of manufacture consider " how many of these might we sell ? " Perhaps it due to sheer number of potential horns to be sold _ but you see alot more really good trumpets and trombones in amateur ensembles then you do really good tubas and I usually see a 5 or 6 to one ratio between tbone players , trumpet players and tubists- we can buy really good tubas- just at a ridiculous cost ...

[Wyvern]

We have lots of new models, but many were very poorly designed and play poorly or at least not as well as you would hope given the ridiculous prices charged for them.

Really!!! What about the Thor, Baer, Petrushka, Bruckner, Norwegian Star... (a few which just come to mind)

Surely none of those recent new models are "very poorly designed and play poorly"???

They may not all be to everyone's liking (the Thor for one is not my sound), but they are all excellent professional tubas.

For people buying cheap 'craptastic' Chinese tubas. The fact that at least three TubeNeters play Chinese tubas 'professionally' means they are obviously not so terribly bad and it is really up to individuals how they spend their own money. Some people are willing to pay high for the very best tuba they can find, while for others a reasonable tuba at a price they can afford if more important. We are lucky to have such choice available to suit people's different priorities and situations.

There will never be the perfect tuba as we are all different with different requirements, but my perception is the best modern tubas are in no way inferior to modern trumpets.