Does horns change?!

[Lingon]

Maybe this matter have been discussed millions of times on the TN, but I have not been able to find anything, or I could not use a correct search critera. So, here it goes.

I have many times very surprised experienced horns that previously was nothing special, after a period of rest living up. For trombones that is. For example a couple of instruments I have bought over the years have been OK to play at arrival but nothing special, no great sound at all. So after a couple of weeks test playing with no progress they have been put away with a note that they could not be used for the purposes I have at hand. However, when they have been on a stand in the corner or even in their cases for a couple of months and I tried again, suddenly something has happend. It is like they have waked up. Now many of them plays much better, with great sound and there may even be a feeling of intonation bettered. This is something some of my colleagues also have experienced, always very surprised.

I am a bit confused, because this should not happen, or should it?

One more thing. On trombones I have experienced that it is possible to, by playing them in different ways have the internal intonation change. Yeah, I know putting the slide at different positions, but that is not what I meant... For example if you lend your horn to someone for some time, then the instrument sometimes would be returned feeling totally different than before.

Now, how about tubas? Anyone that have experienced these pehenomenon? If so, are there any reasonable explanations or is it some magic?!

[Mark]

I beleive that the playing characteristics of an instrument will change, sometimes for the better, with heavy use. Under the circumstances you describe, I suspect it is the player not the instrument that has changed.

[chronolith]

It is more reasonable I believe to consider the possibility that the player has changed or grown in some way. I have experienced this a couple of times and in most cases I have found that my ideosyncrasies and habits as a player will have a greater affect than anything that could possibly change the horn over time.

In one instance a horn that I started with after a long break just seemed fantastic to me, but I put it down for a while and played my main horn to get back into shape. Once I had gotten back into a good groove in my practice schedule I went back to the other horn and found things about the horn that I did not like very much anymore and ended up selling it.

Do you play often and consistently? We as tubists spend long hours on artistry and technique but the foundation for that is consistency and good habits. If we get out of a consistent pattern then you will find (even though you may use the same horn) that you are picking up what seems like a different instrument every time. It becomes very difficult to judge an instrument when the real X factor is the player.

I compare it to rowing a boat. If you are just starting out and want to sprint into competitive speed, you will splash a lot and make a lot of waves (and get tired very quickly) while wasting energy getting there. Once you have momentum though, 100% of your strength goes into the stroke and you can really focus in on your form and consistency, but your are then also moving at top speed! Don't lose momentum in your practice.

It is a little irksome to me that there is a tendency for us players to spend so much time trying to find the perfect horn or the perfect mouthpiece (and yes my blokepiece is perfect ). The hardware is the last 10% of the equation. You can do more to develop and perfect your sound, or damage and destroy it, in the practice room than you ever can in the music store.

Get a teacher or just someone with astute ears to sit and listen to you. Someone you trust. Spend a few bob and get your horn checked out by a repair professional.

If you have gone back to the horn and revealed it for the gem it is, congratulations! This happens rarely and you should count yourself lucky. But I don't think it is the horn. More likely you are a better player now!

[Lingon]

Thanks for the thoughts.

...It is more reasonable I believe to consider the possibility that the player has changed or grown in some way. I have experienced this a couple of times and in most cases I have found that my ideosyncrasies and habits as a player will have a greater affect than anything that could possibly change the horn over time...

Yes that was my thought when this happened the first time. But then when it happened again, and also some colleagues had similar experiences. I also remember a discussion with an old instrument technician many years ago and he said something about the molecules in the metal and their orientation in an instrument 'sleeping' and that something happens when an instrument is again being awakened. Never thought much about it back then, but nowadays when I have own experiences I wonder if these things really happen.

As the most significant example I have experienced is the Bach basstrombone that had been in a storage room at work for about ten years or more. I did test it a lot of years ago, and then again some years later. Both times it felt dead, stuffy, totally uninteresting. However, then a couple of years later we had a gig where I did not want to take my own horn so I decided to try that old Bach again. It was again a really bad experience, but I thought I should give it a week or two. So I used it on the Nielsen 4th with Herbert Blomstedt. And I can assure you that I had to play the horn to the maximum. At first it was dead and stuffy. Then a couple of days into the production suddenly it opened up and after that it had been really good, not the absolutely best Bach I tried but really good. So something happened and it felt like the horn did wake up from a looong sleep. There were no rats or other suspect stuff coming out of the bell though. Now, does such things happen or is it only a dream?!

Have any of you had some experiences like this with a tuba?

...Do you play often and consistently? We as tubists spend long hours on artistry and technique but the foundation for that is consistency and good habits. If we get out of a consistent pattern then you will find (even though you may use the same horn) that you are picking up what seems like a different instrument every time. It becomes very difficult to judge an instrument when the real X factor is the player.

Well, I have been making my living of playing in one of the national symphony orchestras where I live for many years now so I would say I have to be constantly playing and hopefully in good shape to not be fired... The colleagues I mentioned are all professionals too so I do not think it may have that much with coming back after a couple of months of not playing or so. As I have many more colleagues playing trombone than tuba there are not so many to ask about this regarding tubas. However Tubenet reaches a lot more players, so maybe more thoughts of the matter?!

...It is a little irksome to me that there is a tendency for us players to spend so much time trying to find the perfect horn or the perfect mouthpiece (and yes my blokepiece is perfect ). The hardware is the last 10% of the equation. You can do more to develop and perfect your sound, or damage and destroy it, in the practice room than you ever can in the music store...

That's a good point. There is far too much focus on the equipment when there should be much more about the real stuff, the music. However, the younger persons seems to always look at the so called pros' and when they see someone with a new horn they also want to rush after the same thing. 'Have you seen/heard that xxxxxxxx have that new megabuck shiny horn and sounds terrific? I really must have such an instrument too... That's not so good, but I think that will happen all the time. Therefore I try to use mostly old good stuff, maybe even Frankenbones or Chxxx made instruments that looks uninteresting, but there are other players around that every now and then show up with nice new instruments that the kids wish they cold buy.

...Get a teacher or just someone with astute ears to sit and listen to you. Someone you trust...

We do this sort of play testing in our hall, a medium sized concert hall w about 1300 seats, every now and then and are always surprised over the results.

...If you have gone back to the horn and revealed it for the gem it is, congratulations! This happens rarely and you should count yourself lucky. But I don't think it is the horn. More likely you are a better player now!...

Thanks for both.

Now, any more of you that have experienced horn changing characteristics?

[chronolith]

Ah yes, with more information comes more clarity. Thanks for your response. You have certainly put my initial responses to rest!

At this point it is probably time for some of our repair masters to chime in. I know that simply constructing an instrument introduces stresses in the horn that remain over time. These potential energies can manifest themselves in strange ways all other factors aside. I am sure you are aware of the somewhat controversial process of lowering the temperature of an instrument down to (or close to) absolute zero in order to in some way release those stresses. I have never used it myself but I know at least a couple of professionals who swear by it.

So my question then becomes one of storage. In what conditions do you store the instrument. Is the temperature variable? Is it ever exposed to direct sunlight?

It sounds like after a few days you are managing to find the core of the instrument that is not there when you first pick it up. Which is again about the players ability to match and master the particular instrument. I wonder what would happen if maybe three players of varying skill levels all tested this instrument in a similar schedule. If the horn is changing, would all the players start to see changes?

[ghmerrill]

I also remember a discussion with an old instrument technician many years ago and he said something about the molecules in the metal and their orientation in an instrument 'sleeping' and that something happens when an instrument is again being awakenedcharacteristics?

There is perhaps some underlying science pertaining to the value of cryogenic treatments of metals and the effect of this at the molecular level with regard to such properties as brittleness and hardness. Other than that, I think that appeal to the notions of sleeping or aligning molecules is the kind of "folk science" that is not likely to turn out to be of practical value (not to mention being incompatible with current theory). I would not discourage genuine research in this area (preferably not tax-funded), but this is not exactly like restringing a tennis racquet and then letting it sit for a number of days until the forces stabilize (for which, in fact, there is abundant experimental evidence that is consistent with theory).

[imperialbari]

The answer may be very simple and it has been touched upon over the years by Dave Werden and by bloke.

Instruments played briefly and then stored rarely are dried thoroughly before storage. With trombone slides as well as with rotors & pistons corrosion of the brass side of moving contact parts is a tightening factor. Especially when the micro-porous layers of corrosion bond with the heavier fragments of lubricants.

Klaus

[Lingon]

...Instruments played briefly and then stored rarely are dried thoroughly before storage. With trombone slides as well as with rotors & pistons corrosion of the brass side of moving contact parts is a tightening factor. Especially when the micro-porous layers of corrosion bond with the heavier fragments of lubricants...

Which reminds me of the old tale I heard when I first attended the Royal Academy. In a new horn you should pour sour milk. Then it will be a very good sounding instrument for the rest of it's life.

Of course something happen when the metal corrodes and become damp (correct word?). But the situation I described with the horn that suddenly opened up after playing Nielsen a bit loud. It has then never 'closed' down again, maybe because I use it regularly. It would be interesting though to put it in storage for ten years and then make the same experiment. But that may be something for the next generation... But the same thing have happened, not that severe though, with other instruments both for me and for colleagues. Not in tuba territory??

The other thing I asked about was if some of you had experienced that an instrument had become different in internal tuning when someone else had played it for a while. This have happened one of my old teachers when he lent his trombone to a student just for about half an hour.

[Rick Denney]

There is perhaps some underlying science pertaining to the value of cryogenic treatments of metals and the effect of this at the molecular level with regard to such properties as brittleness and hardness.

Not much. Temperature treatments attempt to relax internal stresses in the metal, which can reduce the preload and allow the brass to vibrate with less input force (from the acoustic resonance). A properly constructed tuba won't have much in the first place. But it's a reason why hand-hammered instruments tend to be a bit sweeter than hydraulicly pressed instruments. This is, at best, a subtle effect with a tuba, because little or none of the tuba sound is actually produced by the vibrating resonance of the brass. Nearly all the sound is produced by the resonating air column.

I have a Martin fiberglass tuba that sounds like a tuba. That material has vastly more damping than brass, less material stiffness, probably greater strength (at least in terms of yield strength). It thuds when you tap it instead of clanging, so I doubt that it resonates at any relevant frequency. But it still sounds exactly like a tuba.

As to whether instruments change, the answer is no. There is some age-hardening of brass, but if hardness (strength) were a big issue, instruments would be disassembling themselves or folding up as we played them. Stiffness will not change with temperature treatments or age. And without yielding (or annealing), internal stresses will not go away.

But I've played instruments that ten years ago presented me with a completely different playing experience. I think I know what did change.

Rick "who is far more plastic than brass" Denney

[ghmerrill]

There is perhaps some underlying science pertaining to the value of cryogenic treatments of metals and the effect of this at the molecular level with regard to such properties as brittleness and hardness.

Not much. Temperature treatments attempt to relax internal stresses in the metal, which can reduce the preload and allow the brass to vibrate with less input force (from the acoustic resonance). A properly constructed tuba won't have much in the first place.

Sorry. I was less than clear about my intention here. I didn't mean that this was a worthwhile approach in terms of improving instruments. What I had in mind was the cryogenic treatments often used now in the treatment of cutting tools. E.g., http://www.ijest.info/docs/IJEST11-03-05-205.pdf. And as you point out, the extension of these worthwhile results to the realm of sound production in instruments is itself a kind of "folk science" that lacks foundation.