Please advise on source of green slime like wilted lettuce!

[Walter Webb]

Today I ran a Reka brand snake with a soapy-wet firm sponge on the end thru all the slides and valves, and pulled it thru all the crooks and tubes. It's a 1 yr-old Kanstul 66S. I found an alarming amount of dark green stuff that seems to have formed into sheets of something akin to wilted lettuce! The slime is flat and takes the shape of whatever tube it forms in. I made a little pile of it, about 3/4 of a teaspoon full. It's mushy and falls apart. I don't think it is food or anything blown in thru the mouthpiece, because there was absolutely none in the inlet pipe. Besides, I always brush my teeth before playing. Most of all, I have never blown the tuba wilst chewing a mouthful of lettuce. I have occasionally sipped clear Gin (Queen Victoria on the label) and blown the tuba like a breathalizer...

Most of the slime formed in the crooks within an inch or two fo coming out the valves. Likewise at the top and bottoms of each piston's travel. Could Hetman Piston Oil #2 be the source of this slime? If so, is there a slime free-oil to use? What else could it be?

Thanking you advisors, in advance, Walter

[Alex C]

You have what some old method books I have used to call, verdigris (but it's not the verdigris defined in dictionaries). It is probably not from Hetmann's although some valve oils (with non-lubricant additives) seem to contribute to it. I don't want to think about what caused it any more. ech

Just, in the future, rinse your mouth out before you play and don't wait a year to clean out your horn.

[ckalaher1]

Based on my experience, I would be shocked if it wasn't the Hetman's causing the slime.

I bought my horn used, and only Hetman's had been used on it for years. I noticed the green slime in the valve casings and the ports in the valves. When I took it to get a chem bath, Bill Meyers at St. Louis Woodwind and Brasswind repair told me that the green slime he got out of the horn nearly clogged his drain. He said it was from the synthetic oil, so I switched to conventional oil, in my case blue juice. I have had no green slime since, and the valve action is faster than it was previously.

[Walter Webb]

Just, in the future, rinse your mouth out before you play and don't wait a year to clean out your horn.

VERDIGRIS! What a nice sounding word. Thanks, Alex. But like I said, I always brush my teeth before playing. No chunks, nor chow of any kind. This particular slime was not created by some chemical attacking the brass, but is more like a deposit. Once I wipe it away, the brass is shiny and unaffected. Tuba playing is not for the faint of heart, for we have so many feet of brass intestines.

Any other users of Hetmann's #2 Piston oil with wilted lettuce? I remain suspicious of the valve oil...

[Rick Denney]

I am also suspicious. I never used to have a problem with this until I switched to Hetman's. The Hetman's works wonderfully, but I have to clean the green slime out of the instrument every couple of months since using it. I don't get have the problem at all in my rotary F tuba which does not get the Hetman treatment. Next time I give the Holton a bath, I'm going back to Blue Juice to see what happens.

This does not seem like verdigris, which is a patina, not a precipitate. This is a precipitate--it can be wiped off and while it may be colored by the brass it does not seem to me to be the result of brass oxidation. A patina has to be polished off or chemically dissolved.

Rick "who can do without the green slime" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

Ten or so years ago I began using synthetics like Hetmans and Alysin. I also began to see a jelly-like deposit in the valve ports that would dry to a paper-thin loose coating if left exposed to air for very long. I haven't used anything but lamp oil for about eight years and haven't noticed any deposits at all. Copious amounts of lamp oil keeps things pretty clean.

I think most of the problem with synthetics is that players tend to apply it in only small amounts... not enough to really wash down the piston and casings.

LOTS of oil is good. Keeps things clean.

[ghmerrill]

I confess that I'm puzzled by reports of problems with synthetic oils. I've never used Hetman's (and on the basis of this sort of testimony am not inclined to), but after trying a variety of oils have used nothing except Alysin, once I found it, and seen no evidence of any problems with it. It is, to my mind, the very best light lubricant I've come across (though I wish it were at least a bit less expensive), and I use it for all kinds of applications that require a light oil (including tools, firearms, locks, small hinges, etc.). It was, as I recall, developed for industrial uses in the aircraft industry, and so far as I can tell is absolutely non-reactive in any environment I've tried it in (also colorless, odorless, doesn't stain, and is probably tasteless, though I haven't gone so far as to test that ). I also use it very sparingly (as directed), and have used it on my rotary tuba, the Yamaha 321S piston tuba I had, and on my Holton TR181 when I had it (the valves; not the slide). I realize that pistons seem to require more (and more frequent) lubrication than rotors, but even on the Yammy, relatively little was required and it seemed to have good "staying power". I do wonder if problems don't arise from the use of different (I mean generally chemically different) oils in instruments at times. I've heard (strictly anecdotal reports) that this may be troublesome, but I haven't really done any experimentation about that. I also wonder if there may be a problem with valve oil reacting with whatever slide grease you may be using. But I've really only used anhydrous lanolin and have seen no problems with that as well. Maybe I've just been lucky.

[Dan Schultz]

.... I do wonder if problems don't arise from the use of different (I mean generally chemically different) oils in instruments at times. I've heard (strictly anecdotal reports) that this may be troublesome, but I haven't really done any experimentation about that. .....

Good point. I think combinations of difference chemistry might be a large part of the problem.

[JCalkin]

I have never used any synthetic oils, and I regularly get the green stuff in my horn.

I respectfully submit that Hetman's is not the problem, at least on its own.

[pgym]

.... I do wonder if problems don't arise from the use of different (I mean generally chemically different) oils in instruments at times. I've heard (strictly anecdotal reports) that this may be troublesome, but I haven't really done any experimentation about that. .....

Good point. I think combinations of difference chemistry might be a large part of the problem.

Possibly, however, when I had my horn chem cleaned last July, the tech applied Hetman's (light piston on the valves, #7 on the slides) and threw in a container of each. When I went to oil the valves a week later, I found a waxy yellow deposit around the circumference of all the valve ports. A week later, I found the same thing.

Switched to Yamaha light synthetic (still using the Hetman's #7), and haven't had the problem since.

[GC]

Has anyone here found the green gunk after using Blue Juice or other detergent oils?

[ghmerrill]

I am shocked, with all the funding available for biomedical research, that we do not know the source or composition of the green slime. Certainly there must be grant money out there somewhere that can support the necessary research. This is even more fundamental than tuba design research. As soon as I'm finished with my upcoming jury duty, I will explore the possibilities. One of my old managers is a committed trumpet player (they must face the problem to some degree as well?). We just need to find the right process to get this supported by big pharma, and there are potentially serious epidemiological issues here. This project is shovel-ready.

[MartyNeilan]

You have what some old method books I have used to call, verdigris (but it's not the verdigris defined in dictionaries). It is probably not from Hetmann's although some valve oils (with non-lubricant additives) seem to contribute to it. I don't want to think about what caused it any more. ech

Just, in the future, rinse your mouth out before you play and don't wait a year to clean out your horn.

I have had the same issue with piston horns using Hetmans. Every few months to once a year, you need to clean out that thin coating of green sludge that accumulates in the piston ports and valve knuckles.
HOWEVER, this is not a knock on Hetman valve oils. I still use the classic piston oil on my kid's 12J, and the valves are smooth tight and quiet with it. I also use the hetman rotor oils on my big rotary CC.
I have taken to using La Tromba T2 on new tight pistons.

[SousaSaver]

There's your problem...

[ghmerrill]

We may be looking at a set of "confounding factors" here that involve both the chemical makeup of a particular oil, the body chemistry of the player, and perhaps the composition of the brass of the instrument.

[bbocaner]

Used Hetman's on my new Miraphone 5050.
Got the slime.
Quit using Hetman's.
Washed the horn out.
Switched to Yamaha synthetic.
Quit getting the slime.

I get the green stuff on instruments I've always used the Yamaha synthetic on.

It's probably been 10 years since I've used non-synthetic valve oil, but I seem to remember getting it back then, too.

It's really remarkable stuff, that green slime!!

I also used to get the waxy yellow stuff on instruments that I used hetmans piston oil on, which is why I don't use hetmans on pistons anymore but I still like their rotary and bearing oils.

[mammoth2ba]

Ten or so years ago I began using synthetics like Hetmans and Alysin. I also began to see a jelly-like deposit in the valve ports that would dry to a paper-thin loose coating if left exposed to air for very long. I haven't used anything but lamp oil for about eight years and haven't noticed any deposits at all. Copious amounts of lamp oil keeps things pretty clean.

There’s an interesting online video produced by Yamaha regarding the attributes of mineral vs synthetic valve oils and describes their oil testing process (this is a long video, but small image size for rapid loading):
http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product ... s/oil.html" target="_blank

Players have evidently had a wide range of experiences with Alisyn, with the following of interest regarding viscosity posted in 2004 on trumpetherald:

“According to the Music Chem site, Alisyn oil is the THICKEST of all the oils they tested. It's viscosity is 7.59 as compared to one of the thinnest oils, Blue Juice, which is at 1.99. That is quite a difference. No doubt it isn't good on newer trumpets with tighter valve tolerances. I tried a bottle once, a long time ago, and still have it, but only used it once and didn't care for it with my Yamaha (another tight fitting valved horn).

You can find the study here:

http://www.musichem.com/articles/p_oil_e.htm" target="_blank”

The musichem link appears to be dead, but several player reviews of Alisyn can still be viewed here:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/view ... fa816ad449" target="_blank

[Dan Schultz]

I am shocked, with all the funding available for biomedical research, that we do not know the source or composition of the green slime. Certainly there must be grant money out there somewhere that can support the necessary research. This is even more fundamental than tuba design research. As soon as I'm finished with my upcoming jury duty, I will explore the possibilities. One of my old managers is a committed trumpet player (they must face the problem to some degree as well?). We just need to find the right process to get this supported by big pharma, and there are potentially serious epidemiological issues here. This project is shovel-ready.

There you go Kiltietuba. Make some real money and quit foolin' with the 'sousaphone papers'!

[Teubonium]

Has anyone here found the green gunk after using Blue Juice or other detergent oils?

I too used to use Hetman's on my piston horns. Plenty of yellow-green slime buildup mostly around the the valve ports. I was constantly (about once a week) pulling a blob of it out of somewhere!

I cleaned the horn, switched to Blue Juice about 4 years ago, and have not seen any slimey stuff since.

[opus37]

This leads to the question, how often should a horn be cleaned with a brush. If a horn is played daily for 1 hour per day, how often should it be cleaned?