Bohm & Meinl

[Dan Schultz]

When did B & M begin making their 'York-ish' tubas? I know it had to have been well before 1971 because that's when the Marzan tubas were made. These horns have been around for some time bearing several names... Bohm & Meinl, Sander's, Marzan, Nirschl, and York 'Master' to name a few.

Was (is) there a relationship between Bohm & Meinl and Willson?

[Alex C]

Tinker, are you certain that B&M made the Sanders imported by Fred Marrick? The quality of those instruments was excellent, as good as anything on the market at the time. My impressions of B&M is that the cosmetics were lacking, the Sanders that I saw were pristine. I'm just checking, not challenging.

[Dan Schultz]

Tinker, are you certain that B&M made the Sanders imported by Fred Marrick? The quality of those instruments was excellent, as good as anything on the market at the time. My impressions of B&M is that the cosmetics were lacking, the Sanders that I saw were pristine. I'm just checking, not challenging.

I'm 99% certain that the Sander's 'Symphonic' tuba that I have here is identical to some Bohm & Meinl tubas I've seen. The horn compares in every way except the location of the main tuning slide of the Marzan tubas that I'm familiar with. Here are a couple of pictures of the Sander's 'Symphonic' along side my Marzan. The fourth wrap on the Sander's is on the back and the main bows are turn slightly differently. But... all the components appear to be the same. The Marzan is on the left in both images.

[Rick Denney]

Is that Sanders a C? It has the same layout as my YM, but the slides don't project out as far.



York stopped production of tubas before WWII and made war materials. My understanding, probably from Brian Fredericksen's summary, was that they made student-model instruments in Grand Rapids after the war. Their better instruments were imported. I'm not sure that all of those were made by B&M, but more of the York Master instruments sure seem to have been.

I don't know when Oscar Lagasse bought my YM--he was the first owner. I've heard separately that it could have been 1960ish or it could have been 1970ish--and Mr. Lagasse could not be more specific when one of its subsequent owners asked him. My gut (that ever-questionable historical resource) tells me that 1960 is about right.

Marzan changed B&M's design, and those changes were propagated into B&M's regular production. One of those changes was a lighter, thinner bell, but the main change was the top-reachable main tuning slide. B&M-made Marzan and subsequent B&M Symphonic models had that feature, but my YM does not. If you compared my YM to a more modern Symphonic 5500, the comparison would resemble Dan's picture of a Marzan and the "Sanders".

I'm confused by the Sanders label. I thought that Cerveny had made all of those. This one, judging from the lack of Marzan improvements, seems to have been made in the 60's at least. Was Fred importing tubas with the Sanders label in those days?

Chuck Guzis, from whom I bought the YM, once hypothesized that B&M, through York, was trying to compete in the booming American market against the then-dominant King 1241. The design configuration is quite similar, and both are based on classic American forms that were also made by most other American manufacturers. One thing is for sure--they nailed their valve design. My YM has the best valves of any of my tubas, except that they are oriented wrong for the position of the leadpipe.

Rick "trying to remember York's budget brand which may have been the bulk of what came out of Grand Rapids in the 50's" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

Is that Sanders a C? It has the same layout as my YM, but the slides don't project out as far....

The layout may appear the same but I think the Sander's and Marzan tubas I've pictured are MUCH larger horns than your B & M-built York 'Master'.

Here are images of a Bohm & Meinl CC and a Marzan CC that share characteristics with the Sander's that we're speaking of:

[Rick Denney]

The layout may appear the same but I think the Sander's and Marzan tubas I've pictured are MUCH larger horns than your B & M-built York 'Master'.

That would take some convincing (like with circumference measurements at, say, the bow ferrules). The bell throat is a bit larger (mine is constricted by the attachment ring), but I have never seen any B&M-made piston tuba that is bigger than my YM other than that one dimension. If it was a C tuba, mine would be called a 5/4. I've compared mine to B&M-made Marzans in person, and except for that one spot on the bell stack, the outer branches are the same. I'm pretty sure the reason my 3rd and 4th tuning slides project out farther is because those branches are longer, that's why I asked if your pictures were of C tubas, which they were. All of these instruments were made using the same basic tooling at the B&M Symphonic 5500 series.

Rick "which Nirschl sent to Brazil, apparently" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

The layout may appear the same but I think the Sander's and Marzan tubas I've pictured are MUCH larger horns than your B & M-built York 'Master'.

That would take some convincing (like with circumference measurements at, say, the bow ferrules).....

The image you posted of your York 'Master' looks 'skinnier' in the image.

Marzan slant-rotor and piston bell
18 7/8" flare
26 3/8" overall length
16 3/8" girth at bow ferrule (5.212" dia)

Marzan piston specs:
1.039" diameter
3.666" length
.742" bore (actual horn bore is .751")

I've been trying to tie down some history about the B & M/Marzan/York Master/Nirschl tubas for a long time and keep running into 'dead ends'. This latest "Sander's" 'Symphonic' IS obviously a B & M stencil. It was probably marketed by Custom Music and is not to be confused with the "Sander" tubas (without the apostrophe and 's'). That was a different animal altogether. There is currently a 'slant-rotor' at Custom that looks like it was built by Amati.

Who knows what lurks out there? It seems that no one kept very good records of what they produced or sold. Apparently Getzen and Custom both sold the Marzans and probably also had ties to B & M. I suppose who made (or sold) what isn't really all that important but it's always fun to try to sort out some of goings-on in the industry.

I've talked with the folks who rep the new Nirschl tubas about the origin of the Walter Nirschl tooling and was led to believe that IT'S NOT the original B & M tooling that is being used to produce the new version of the horns. BTW... I understand that the Brazil production of those horns is short-lived. Apparently the labor costs in South America are not what they once were.

[Rick Denney]

The image you posted of your York 'Master' looks 'skinnier' in the image.

Marzan slant-rotor and piston bell
18 7/8" flare
26 3/8" overall length
16 3/8" girth at bow ferrule (5.212" dia)

Marzan piston specs:
1.039" diameter
3.666" length
.742" bore (actual horn bore is .751")

These are quick measurements--no need for real precision here. My YM has a 20+" bell, stands about 38 inches tall, and has a circumference at the bow ferrule of 16-3/4" (measured on the bell side of the ferrule). The bell stack is about 25-3/4" to the center of the ferrule. The piston measures exactly the same as yours, though I didn't measure to the third decimal place (my calipers weren't handy and I used a precision rule instead).

I don't think the YM is any skinnier than your Marzan, except right in the middle of the bell stack where it is constrained by the attachment ring. Both the Marzan and the regular B&M Symphonic had the larger throats, and I think that is to their advantage compared to the York Master.

Edit: Forgot to add that with Lagasse living in Detroit, and Jay Bertolet who bought a similar B&M instrument to the YM that was in Lagasse's studio also in Detroit, it would be mighty tempting to suspect that Custom was indeed selling YMs and B&Ms.

I'm glad Nirschl didn't send the tooling to Brazil, but he had said as recently about three years ago that he could make the B&M Symphonic instruments.

Rick "noticing that shiny tubas look skinnier, and the YM is no longer shiny" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

.... These are quick measurements--no need for real precision here. .... I'm glad Nirschl didn't send the tooling to Brazil, but he had said as recently about three years ago that he could make the B&M Symphonic instruments.

Rick "noticing that shiny tubas look skinnier, and the YM is no longer shiny" Denney

Yeah... I think those horns all came out of Bohm & Meinl and off the same tooling as the German Nirschl tubas.

I do think it would be worth a trip to Custom to dig around in the 'back rooms'.

When did York production in Grand Rapids cease? Was it before or after the Germans cloned the tapers?

[Rick Denney]

I do think it would be worth a trip to Custom to dig around in the 'back rooms'.

When did York production in Grand Rapids cease? Was it before or after the Germans cloned the tapers?

I've been in that back room and did not notice any instruments like the ones we are discussing. The file cabinet is probably what you mean, but it was well-guarded. But have you asked the new guys? Maybe someone could persuade Neal Campbell or Jeff Rideout to dig around in the old files to see if they sold B&M instruments.

Brian mentioned that York made only student-model tubas in the old Grand Rapids factory after the war, but he's not that old and needed a source. He might remember the details or at least from whom that information could be gathered. The label went away altogether by 1971, so any B&M instruments sold after that time would be sold under a different label. I'm sure production in Grand Rapids ceased before then.

I'm not sure the Germans cloned the tapers of the Yorks. I think they imitated the Yorks in style and layout at a conceptual level. It has been confirmed long since that no tooling moved from Grand Rapids to Geretsried.

All this has resulted in the YM emerging from its case for the first time in a while, and I sat down with it this evening. It is simply a great tuba, and greater with the Sellmansberger Symphony mouthpiece that I've become used to. And those valves are still to die for (as is that magical low F). I need to put that tuba into the rotation more actively.

Rick "thinking B&M needed better marketing back in the day" Denney

[windshieldbug]

I think that the magic date that you're mentioning for York is not the start of WWII, but the sale of York to Carl Fischer Musical Instruments in December, 1940. I suspect that is the cut-off date for anything called York Master. Serial numbers may overrun, but Fischer seems to be responsible (with Blessing and others) for outsourcing.

[Bandmaster]

According to the original owner of my York-Master, he purchased this tuba in 1955 to play as a touring member the Cities Service Band of America under Paul Lavalle. It is my understanding that B&M made this York-Master BBb tuba sometime before that.

[Dan Schultz]

According to the original owner of my York-Master, he purchased this tuba in 1955 to play as a touring member the Cities Service Band of America under Paul Lavalle. It is my understanding that B&M made this York-Master BBb tuba sometime before that...

Yup... B & M. Beautiful!

[Rick Denney]

According to the original owner of my York-Master, he purchased this tuba in 1955 to play as a touring member the Cities Service Band of America under Paul Lavalle. It is my understanding that B&M made this York-Master BBb tuba sometime before that.

Klaus's York Master is of a similar configuration to yours. Hey, Klaus, do you know when yours was made? Mine has the fourth-valve branch on the rear, similar to the "Sander's" (does it really have that apostrophe?) that Dan pictured, while yours is on the front, like Klaus's and more like the 4/4 Yorks of the 30's. Judging from the dates, yours is probably older than mine, and I wonder if that change in the fourth-valve branch happened at a particular time. That appears to be the only difference between yours and mine (other than the condition).

We probably don't have nearly enough examples or history to figure it out, but it would be cool to have a list of generational modifications to the original design. Fourth valve branch moves from front to back happened sometime between 1955 (the latest yours could have been made) and 1960 (the Rick's-gut-corroborated year that Lagasse bought it new). The main slide was moved to the top (a Marzan influence). That accompanied several other general changes in the layout that would not have required different tooling except for the braces. I've seen a B&M Symphonic that is relatively new--could have been made in the 90's--that is not much different than the Marzan design. It's obviously made with the same parts as mine, but it's not put together in the same way.

Rick "hoping Dan finds more examples" Denney

[Alex C]

I've talked with the folks who rep the new Nirschl tubas about the origin of the Walter Nirschl tooling and was led to believe that IT'S NOT the original B & M tooling that is being used to produce the new version of the horns.

The Nirschl's produced in Brazil were made from tooling which was either made by Nirschl or copied.

What do you mean by "new version of the horns?"

You are correct about the cost of production in Brazil. Not only had the Brazilian Real risen in value compared to the USD but labor costs increased which more than doubled cost of production.

[Dan Schultz]

.... What do you mean by "new version of the horns?" ....

When I refer to the Walter Nirschl tubas as 'the new version'... I am implying (my opinion) that these horns are basically 'warmed-over' York designs.... as was quite a bit of the production that came out of B & M during the second half of last century.

BTW.... the "Sander's 'Symphonic'" tuba I have here at the moment (it's for sale) has the 4th wrap on the back of the horn. It has the same bugle as the other examples of B & M production I've seen... aka Marzan. The "Sander's" was most likely commissioned & sold by Custom Music. Note the apostrophe before the 's'.

I'm thinking that York probably had as much influence on tuba design as Besson.

[toobagrowl]

I like B&M baked beans, does that count?
Seriously though.......I once tooted on an old lacquered B&M-made "York Master" bell-front BBb tuba. It had a VERY mellow, smooth, covered/muted sound,......... not quite open/clear enough for my tastes. Thought it was a little stuffy too. Was well made though and heavy!
I also once tooted on a silver Marzan at the TE many moons ago. But I could not accurately asses it as it had a MAJOR leak somewhere. It played as though the spit valve had no cork or there was an opening/hole at a solder joint. Still sounded good even with that major air leak.

[Alex C]

When I refer to the Walter Nirschl tubas as 'the new version'... I am implying (my opinion) that these horns are basically 'warmed-over' York designs....

I can confirm that the tooling used to build tubas branded with any variation of Nirschl (W. Nirschl, Meister Walter Nirschl, etc.) were made from the same tooling as Nirschl's own production (in as far as modern machine work is capable of reproducing tooling exactly).

Certainly, there are modern horns which are intended to be copies of the York (4/4, 5/5 and 6/4). "Warmed over?" How about "inspired by York?"

I have played original 4/4 York's (1930's-40's) back-to-back with my 4/4 Nirschl: In my opinion the Yorks were more "lively" in sound and virtually effortless in response.

The Nirschl was more efficient and (as a friend who plays in one of the major orchestras likes to say) "makes more of a racket." The low register was noticably more responsive on the Nirschl but that may be due to a number of factors.

Wouldn't you like to see someone copy a York tuba exactly? All the copy-ers want to improve it.