Are Colleges really to Blame?

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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by ghmerrill »

talleyrand wrote:
ghmerrill wrote: (a) has had no training and little if any experience in teaching,
You're kidding, right? Because I assure you none of the tenured or tenure track faculty have ever had any training in teaching either, and whatever experience they've had has been entirely under their own watchful eye.
What you say is not universally true (though it is all too frequently true). There are departments which take seriously their obligation to turn out Ph.D.s who are capable of planning, organizing, and teaching a class. Many centuries ago when I was a graduate student, a requirement for my degree was at least three semesters as a teaching assistant in courses closely supervised by the instructor. This included the delivery of some class lectures/presentations in each course, grading (with results reviewed by the professor), and teaching of discussion sections. For the most part, students would put in at least four semesters doing this (I did). Students who did not get fellowships would put in eight semesters (it being customary at that time to get a Ph.D. in many disciplines within a four-year span). There are still a number of departments that have such requirements and take them very seriously.

However, I did not mean to imply (and so far as I can see did not imply) that a lot of the faculty were any better (though some are great). Nonetheless, they at least have experience -- if not any supervised training and instruction in teaching. And experience counts. Most people actually learn from experience -- even faculty :) . In general, though not universally, humanities departments are better at educating their graduate students to teach. There is a longer tradition there.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by Michael Bush »

ghmerrill wrote:
talleyrand wrote:
ghmerrill wrote: (a) has had no training and little if any experience in teaching,
You're kidding, right? Because I assure you none of the tenured or tenure track faculty have ever had any training in teaching either, and whatever experience they've had has been entirely under their own watchful eye.
What you say is not universally true (though it is all too frequently true). There are departments which take seriously their obligation to turn out Ph.D.s who are capable of planning, organizing, and teaching a class. Many centuries ago when I was a graduate student, a requirement for my degree was at least three semesters as a teaching assistant in courses closely supervised by the instructor. This included the delivery of some class lectures/presentations in each course, grading (with results reviewed by the professor), and teaching of discussion sections. For the most part, students would put in at least four semesters doing this (I did). Students who did not get fellowships would put in eight semesters (it being customary at that time to get a Ph.D. in many disciplines within a four-year span). There are still a number of departments that have such requirements and take them very seriously.

However, I did not mean to imply (and so far as I can see did not imply) that a lot of the faculty were any better (though some are great). Nonetheless, they at least have experience -- if not any supervised training and instruction in teaching. And experience counts. Most people actually learn from experience -- even faculty :) . In general, though not universally, humanities departments are better at educating their graduate students to teach. There is a longer tradition there.
That's pretty impressive. I don't know anyone who had that kind of experience. What we got (which is more than some did) was a one-off sensitivity training session to try to keep us from offending women and minorities.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by sloan »

ghmerrill wrote:
I personally don't like this approach since I continue to harbor the old-fashioned and unrealistic view that the primary role of the university is to teach
Can you cite any competent authority for this quaint idea?

I'm not sure this was *ever* the "primary role of the university".

Now, if your only experience at a university is as a student, then I suppose it's natural to assume that the students are the center of the universe and all revolves around them.

And, if your only experience with a university is as an employer of their graduates, then I suppose it's natural to assume that the role of the university is to prepare students to work as wage slaves in your factory.

But, perhaps you might allow that there are other points of view - which might lead to a different conclusion.

One might as well assume that the primary role of the Catholic Church is to celebrate Mass.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

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sloan wrote:
ghmerrill wrote:
I personally don't like this approach since I continue to harbor the old-fashioned and unrealistic view that the primary role of the university is to teach
Can you cite any competent authority for this quaint idea?

I'm not sure this was *ever* the "primary role of the university".
Well then, what is the primary role then?
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

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sloan wrote:
Rick Denney wrote: But the revenue from research generally supports graduate students, not undergraduates, and it does not support teaching activities. In fact, the research generally undermines teaching quality and service to undergraduate students. That is a challenge.
This analysis is short-sighted, and falls into the "colleges are high schools" trap.


Back to Rick's (mistaken) point: time spent in research does not "undermine" teaching quality. On the contrary, participation in research is an essential pre-requisite for success in teaching at the college/university level.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by TubaRay »

sloan wrote: One might as well assume that the primary role of the Catholic Church is to celebrate Mass.
Are you trying to say that it isn't? What's this world coming to?
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by PMeuph »

sloan wrote:
Rick Denney wrote: But the revenue from research generally supports graduate students, not undergraduates, and it does not support teaching activities. In fact, the research generally undermines teaching quality and service to undergraduate students. That is a challenge.
This analysis is short-sighted, and falls into the "colleges are high schools" trap.

Undergraduates who receive the bulk of their instruction from people who do not do "research" are being short changed. At the very least, a college-level instructor should have a *history* of actually doing research. On the other hand, "research" does not always mean "funded research" - it means participating in the creation of new knowledge (as opposed to the recitation, presentation, and explanation of existing knowledge). Those who *only* teach are, from this point of view, not qualified to teach at the college level.

There is a constant battle to maintain this point of view. Students, parents, administrators, etc. increasingly press for college faculty members who look just like K-12 teachers. Perhaps this is an inevitable result of the trend to treat undergraduate education as simply "high school with ash trays". But, it should be resisted!

There is another, equally insidious trend - that of the so-called "research professor". This class of individual does NO teaching - instead spending 150% of ever work week billing their time against research contracts. Research universities are slowly becoming landlords - renting space to folk who support themselves on research contracts, but see no students (except as employees), teach no classes (except "research seminars" which are thinly disguised meetings of the research team).
They are "members of the technical staff" in a research institute - but they "profess" nothing.

Colleges and Universities are not high schools - neither are they small business incubators.

Back to Rick's (mistaken) point: time spent in research does not "undermine" teaching quality. On the contrary, participation in research is an essential pre-requisite for success in teaching at the college/university level.

This point is best illustrated by common problems at either end of the college/university experience. Courses for college freshmen are frequently designed, staffed, and administered very much like high school courses. This (in my view) is a horrible mistake. I have always argued that freshman courses should be taught by the most SENIOR members of the faculty. The essential goal of a freshman course should be to show the students how people in that field think, what questions they think about, and how they attack those problems. This requires experience in actually doing all of that!

At the other end of the spectrum, my view is that "senior level" undergraduate courses are best taught by junior faculty. This material tends to be more focussed and technical - and benefits from being taught by someone who has MOST RECENTLY contributed new knowledge to the field.

Sadly, it is my (perhaps uninformed) opinion that many MUSIC programs do this exactly backwards.
But then, so do many MATHEMATICS programs (and, alas, many COMPUTER SCIENCE programs). It's not a problem unique to music.
But Sloan, what is research in Music? Really? is it: Musicology? yes... Music Theory? yes... Composition?... Ok, maybe... Performance?...I'm not too sure....

My point was about Tenured Performance Professors.... I am in a school that has these(4 of them out of 9) tenured assistant or full professors earning 85-105k a year to teach lessons, and 1 class a semester and "Do Research."

What is research for a music prof:

-Recording Cds (With University Grants, of course)
-Putting on Recitals
-Performing with Pro ensembles in town.
-Arranging some music...
-Adjudicating festivals (paid by the festival of course)
-Supervising Curriculum development ( again paid by school boards and such)
- And surely some things that I don't notice or that are slight variants of the above points.

To me, I can see the point of having tenured profs (With research and admin duties) teaching classes.(even 10 people seminars) After all, this is what goes on in most departments. But, it seems counter-intuitive to have a prof teach individual lessons at an undergraduate level. Moreover, it seems completely unfair to have a professor earn 100k to teach 2 3 credit classes and 12 students while an adjunct or "sessional" will be earning about half that salary, will have no professional funds, no access to university grants and limited resources to purchase relevant teaching material.

Even if tenured profs have graduate students and supervise them individually, they will for the most part, have the graduate students contributing to some kind of project and that project will usually be subsidized by grants.


I know this view might come off as insulting the many board members who hold these kinds of positions, but I still do see the justification of such a high salary for not much in return. And the distinct difference between their "research" and the research of a scientist, or a historian? (etc..)

What makes a tenured professor (again performance) at a University a better performer and pedagogue than the principal tubist of a big symphony teaching as an adjunct? Please explain that discrepancy. Will the student really be "short-changed" (to use your term) if his lessons are by the latter of the two. In most cases, certainly not...

The reason that universities offer tenure to profs is so they can attract better teachers than the community would usually have. (ie. there is no symphony or military band around) But then, Schools in metropolitan centers have a distinct advantage because they can attract talent, and pay them less than their worth. (ie. hire them as adjuncts)

This situation seems almost unethical. Not towards the students, but more towards the faculty. Hence why I proposed a that a solution would be remove "tenured performance professors" and maybe ultimately to remove performance based studies entirely out of the university, To move it to a Conservatory type school where one can study "practical" performances skills, these skills could be supplemented with additional university classes if the student wanted to. (Online education is quite popular these days) If students would want to study Music Theory/Musicology they could do so in a university and take a well rounded humanities degree.
This approach is used in several European schools and I this it makes sense.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by ghmerrill »

sloan wrote:
ghmerrill wrote:
I personally don't like this approach since I continue to harbor the old-fashioned and unrealistic view that the primary role of the university is to teach
Can you cite any competent authority for this quaint idea?

I'm not sure this was *ever* the "primary role of the university".
My apologies, but I feel the need for a brief lecture.

It would take me some time to delve into the history of the university and "cite competent authority", depending on what you would find acceptable. However it's really not up for debate that the university began (if we start with the generally recognized point for that) in the early middle ages (Paris, Oxford, Cambridge, etc.) as schools founded largely by religious orders to retain and transmit knowledge, and as schools of higher education. The primary role was instruction (i.e., teaching), and research (to the degree it was done at all) was done in its service. Indeed, if you look at the "research literature" of that time (and for several hundred years), the focus was on exegesis and analysis (of, for example, Aristotle and other "great thinkers"). While some significant original contributions were made, "research" was focused on understanding what had previously been done and perhaps how it could be applied, and lectures were typically confined to the subject matter and approaches of the likes of Aristotle, Hippocrates, the Roman scholars, etc. Hence "scholasticism".

Time marched on, but the focus of the university remained on the teaching and training of "young men" (often in religious orders or otherwise of the nobility) and not on what today we would think of as "research". One's role as a professor was to profess. And universities were repositories of knowledge where one could come to get it. (Ya gotta remember: these schools [And what do schools do? Teach?] weren't started by highly independent forward-looking thinkers. They were started and/or staffed by the Church -- if only because those were the only guys who could read.)

This went on into the early modern period and really began to change only with development of modern science in the late middle ages, but more significantly in the Renaissance. At that point, what we would recognize as "scientific research" began to appear in the university, but the primary focus was still teaching.

More time passed and things changed a bit more. With the loosening of the grip of religion on the university and the rise of empirical science, more of what we think of as "research" was being done, but the emphasis and core of the university was still on "higher education". In the U.S., the term 'university' has come to have at least some connotation of "a research institution", but that really began to arise only in the 19-th century and with regard to the science departments (which at that point were splitting off from "natural philosophy").

So I really think it's pretty clear that the primary role of the university throughout most of its history (700 years? Say about 1150-1850) was teaching. That's why people (called "students") went there, that's where the preponderance of the money came from (or where it was to be used), that's why the faculty were called "professors", and that's where by far most of the man-hours of the faculty was devoted.

It's only within the 20-th century (and I would say the mid to late 20-th century) that such a massive shift from teaching to research has occurred -- and this has occurred in large part because of the availability of research funding from various sources (not the least of these, national governments). However, I know that it used to be the case (say 30 years ago) and may still be the case that, for example, Harvard University (or at least the Philosophy Department) required all of its faculty (including the most senior professors) to teach undergraduate and introductory classes. Teaching was regarded as that important. And universities (somewhat cynically and duplicitously, I'll grant) continue to "justify" the time their faculty spend on research by arguing that this is necessary for quality teaching -- indicating that they feel (or would like to give the impression) that it is teaching that is of primary importance.

I can pretty much guarantee you that if you ask a Dean, a Vice-Provost, a Provost, or a Chancellor what the primary role of his/her institution is he/she will say "Education". And if you ask what he/she means by that, you will get "Teaching students". If you don't get that answer, try asking it in front of a news crew or in a group of parents.

Now, whether they're being honest is another matter.

I will grant you also that from the perspective of a "young discipline" like computer science, "ever" probably reaches back ... how far? ... maybe 40 years. With that understanding of "ever", I'd be more inclined to see your point of view. :?
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by Rick Denney »

Dr. Sloan and I have a history of debating topics. He usually accuses me of being wrong. He is usually correct. But I do my best to make him earn it.

I like the notion of the most experienced professors teaching the youngest students, and I agree with the reasoning behind it.

And I never said that research was bad, or that it contradicted teaching objectives. I said that it competed with teaching in most universities, and that professors were challenged to find a balance between the demands of research and the demands of teaching.

Most state universities of which I'm familiar require both teaching and research, as do the accreditation organizations such as the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET), which is the one with which I'm most familiar. ABET requires accredited universities to have faculty that have demonstrated research success. But they also require professors to teach. At schools with a very strong research arm like Texas A&M and Texas Transportation Institute, for example, a pure researcher will have the title "research engineer" and may not have the usual academic credentials (in particular, a Ph.D.). They will not be tenured faculty, and in fact will have more difficulty obtaining a tenured faculty position than those who did not enter their program as pure researchers. They may teach a class or two, but the best academic title they can hope to get is "lecturer". Those who come in with the full academic credentials into tenure-track positions also do research, of course, and often in close cooperation with the research engineers.

Should colleges have those sorts of research programs? That is a really good question that is sure to stir up controversy among the people I hang with. In my view these programs often compete against the private sector, but with significant commercial advantages. They defend it because it is "research". But they usually conflate "research" with "innovation". On the other hand, the universities in my area of expertise that have the deepest research programs, including widespread use of research engineers, often attract and turn out the best and brightest contributors to the profession over the long term. That outcome reinforces the importance of the research activity. Finding the correct balance is a challenge (which is what I said at first).

Very few academics who go into tenure-track faculty positions have any training or experience whatsoever in teaching. Many have English language skills that are marginal at best. There are some activities being undertaken by professional societies to provide teaching boot-camps, but these are fledgling. We are finding very few in our field who emerge from undergraduate programs with any ability to develop methodology from first principles, and it has been getting worse for the last several decades. This decline occurs, perhaps coincidentally, with the predominance of non-native Americans (as in, those who were born here) in graduate academic programs. It is hard to teach effectively if nobody can understand what you are saying.

As to the purpose of state-supported universities, we really don't have to go back to Oxford and Cambridge, which are really very different sorts of learning environments that were geared to education of the aristocracy. We can go back to the land-grant colleges of the 19th century, which were the first colleges supported with public funds. Their job was primarily to develop new technology for use by farmers and industry. Developing new technology required creating it (the research) and transferring it to new generations of practitioners (the teaching). The purpose was to make farms and industry more productive to advance the position of states within the country, and of the U.S. around the world. They certainly based their approach on places like Oxford and Cambridge, but the post-enlightenment Oxbridge of the 18th and 19th centuries, not of the 13th and 14th centuries.

There is much more I might say, but I'd rather debate the good (occasionally) Dr. Sloan over beer.

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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by Biggs »

bloke wrote:
knuxie wrote:So would Indiana Jones have been a more or less effective teacher had he NOT been the world traveler he was?
What if he had known Darth Vader?
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

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bloke wrote:
knuxie wrote:So would Indiana Jones have been a more or less effective teacher had he NOT been the world traveler he was?
What if he had known Darth Vader?
You've missed the crucial connection. He was Darth Vader's graduate student.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

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Rick Denney wrote: As to the purpose of state-supported universities, we really don't have to go back to Oxford and Cambridge, which are really very different sorts of learning environments that were geared to education of the aristocracy. We can go back to the land-grant colleges of the 19th century, which were the first colleges supported with public funds. Their job was primarily to develop new technology for use by farmers and industry.
This appears to be a deviant interpretation. Rather, the mission of these schools was explicitly to teach such things as applied agriculture, science and engineering.

From the act itself:

"to teach such branches of learning as are related to agriculture and the mechanic arts, in such manner as the legislatures of the States may respectively prescribe, in order to promote the liberal and practical education of the industrial classes in the several pursuits and professions in life." [emphasis mine]

Nothing explicit or implied about the goal being to "develop new technology" that I can see. Nothing about "research".
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

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bloke wrote:I wanna get me a job researchin' stuff. I get a salary regardless of what I research and whether-or-not I come to any conclusions...yes...??
G's"
Yes. You are awarded the grant (i.e., the pay) not on the basis of what you do to earn it, but on the basis of what you have done previously and on the recommendations of others concerning your past accomplishments.

But this is the nature of funding research. It's the same in business and industry -- except you only need to convince s senior VP of the benefits of your research. Funding research is always a bet. Now the question is "What are the consequences for the researcher if his research fails to deliver?" In business they are pretty direct. Elsewhere, it's often not clear what "fail" means.

(I would describe as an example the NSF-funded research project that my daughter -- as a middle school teacher -- has just been solicited to join by a local university. But I can't bring myself to do it. She views it as "Getting my tax dollars back.")
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by sloan »

If "success" is the only acceptable outcome, then it is "development", not "research". Usually, you need a track record if success in development before you get the green light fir research.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

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sloan wrote:If "success" is the only acceptable outcome, then it is "development", not "research".
This is a typical academic attitude towards "research" -- to claim that it cannot be judged on any criterion of success. Research can't succeed or fail; it's just research. How convenient. If it were true, then there would be no way of judging which grants to award -- no objective criteria for preferring one application over another on the basis of past experience, and no way to award Nobel prizes. We may argue about what counts as success in a research project, but to deny that such projects can succeed or fail is just nutty. Well, some people believe this. It serves their ends.
sloan wrote:Usually, you need a track record if [of?] success in development before you get the green light fir [for?] research.
Did you really mean to say this? It doesn't make any sense. Academics virtually never do development. For academics, the publication is the product, and nothing else. Over a period of close to twenty-five years of trying to work with academics in computer and information science, I can recall less than a handful of cases where anything was developed, or even where it was intended to develop anything (and in some of those cases the developer actually suffered in terms of his position because he was doing "development" rather than "research" -- Fabio Ciravegna, whom you might know, is a prime example before he left ITC-irst). Just look at grant applications (and the results) and see what "development" has ever been done. Maybe you mean something different by "research" and "development" than the non-academic world does.

But this is just turning into an academic spat. The absurdity remains when academics argue that teaching is not the primary role of their school and that it is sensible to create positions of "teaching professors" as though this should not be a redundant term. It is just a measure of the unreal world that has become normality for them. So harking back to the title of this thread, "Are colleges really to blame?" Well, duh.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by sloan »

knuxie wrote:So would Indiana Jones have been a more or less effective teacher had he NOT been the world traveler he was?
Less. If you don't believe me, ask him - there are numerous quotes to this effect in the films - usually at the beginning, as he is on the way out the door...

Although, if I were his Chair, I'm not sure I would put him in charge of the "Study Abroad" program.

If you are a "teacher" in Indiana, your goal is to be known and respected in Indianapolis.

If you are a "professor" in Indiana, your goal is to be known and respected in Berlin.

I must sign off now - my plane leaves in the morning - meetings in Lübeck and Baden Baden...
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by ghmerrill »

sloan wrote: If you are a "professor" in Indiana, your goal is to be known and respected in Berlin.

I must sign off now - my plane leaves in the morning - meetings in Lübeck and Baden Baden...
Well, not Berlin; but I recommend the spa beside the Roman baths.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by Tuba-G Bass »

The same thing happens in my field,
Television Broadcasting and Production.
There are all sorts of folks who get into this field, but never studied it in College,
unlike me! :mrgreen:
And so there just are not enough jobs for all the folks who are taking this in college,
or even worse, paying to go to a private institution like Full Sail.
:tuba:
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by sloan »

ghmerrill wrote:
sloan wrote:If "success" is the only acceptable outcome, then it is "development", not "research".
This is a typical academic attitude towards "research" -- to claim that it cannot be judged on any criterion of success.
Not what I said. Please try to be accurate when re-phrasing. Better yet - quote, don't re-phrase.
ghmerrill wrote:
sloan wrote:Usually, you need a track record if [of?] success in development before you get the green light fir [for?] research.
Did you really mean to say this? It doesn't make any sense. Academics virtually never do development.
No? Not so much *after* they become academics. While in training, they do a LOT of it.
Most research involves considerable "development" - but it's largely for self-consumption (see the "Methods" section). It's just not the direct deliverable. I'm sorry that it doesn't "make sense" to you. It makes perfect sense to me. A past history of doing successful "development" work is an absolute prerequisite for getting approval/funding for your first "research" product. One of the criteria for judging a grant applition is "is the PI competent to carry out the research". Being able to do "development" is part of that competence. Later on, you may be able to hire someone to do the development work for you (often trainees/apprentices looking to earn their stripes) - but you need to demonstrate the basic skills to get into the game in the first place. By the time one of my PhD students gets around to writing a dissertation proposal, they have already done LOTS of "development" work (usually on projects where *I* am doing the "research"). After that dissertation proposal gets approved, they do a lot *more* "development" work - it's just that we don't talk or write about it very much. It's often slightly sub-standard because it isn't made idiot-proof for an end user - but make no mistake, there's a lot of fast moving feet under that smoothly gliding duck. It's not what we sell - that doesn't mean we don't do it.
ghmerrill wrote: But this is just turning into an academic spat.
gee...whose fault is that?
The absurdity remains when academics argue that teaching is not the primary role of their school and that it is sensible to create positions of "teaching professors" as though this should not be a redundant term.
Excuse me - has anyone in this discussion made such a statement? Who? Where?
I will gladly grant as self-evident that the title of "teaching professor" is an abomination.
Someone who *only* teaches is an "Instructor". Someone who *only* does research is a "Research Associate" or (as Rick points out, perhaps a "Research Engineer). Someone who *only* does administration is a "Dean". Professors do a little bit of each. One activity informs and energizes the other. Take away one leg and the tripod falls over.

Part of the problem is that most people who interact with professors do so in only one of these three roles. Reading these "discussions" is a lot like listening to the 12 blind men describing an elephant. Some folk work with elephants for years before finding out that they have eyes, a trunk and ears. They are too busy shoveling.
Kenneth Sloan
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by sloan »

ghmerrill wrote:
sloan wrote: If you are a "professor" in Indiana, your goal is to be known and respected in Berlin.

I must sign off now - my plane leaves in the morning - meetings in Lübeck and Baden Baden...
Well, not Berlin; but I recommend the spa beside the Roman baths.
You mean, this one?
Badruinensmall.jpg
Kenneth Sloan
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