Are Colleges really to Blame?

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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by ghmerrill »

bloke wrote:I wanna get me a job researchin' stuff. I get a salary regardless of what I research and whether-or-not I come to any conclusions...yes...??
G's"
Yes. You are awarded the grant (i.e., the pay) not on the basis of what you do to earn it, but on the basis of what you have done previously and on the recommendations of others concerning your past accomplishments.

But this is the nature of funding research. It's the same in business and industry -- except you only need to convince s senior VP of the benefits of your research. Funding research is always a bet. Now the question is "What are the consequences for the researcher if his research fails to deliver?" In business they are pretty direct. Elsewhere, it's often not clear what "fail" means.

(I would describe as an example the NSF-funded research project that my daughter -- as a middle school teacher -- has just been solicited to join by a local university. But I can't bring myself to do it. She views it as "Getting my tax dollars back.")
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by sloan »

If "success" is the only acceptable outcome, then it is "development", not "research". Usually, you need a track record if success in development before you get the green light fir research.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

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sloan wrote:If "success" is the only acceptable outcome, then it is "development", not "research".
This is a typical academic attitude towards "research" -- to claim that it cannot be judged on any criterion of success. Research can't succeed or fail; it's just research. How convenient. If it were true, then there would be no way of judging which grants to award -- no objective criteria for preferring one application over another on the basis of past experience, and no way to award Nobel prizes. We may argue about what counts as success in a research project, but to deny that such projects can succeed or fail is just nutty. Well, some people believe this. It serves their ends.
sloan wrote:Usually, you need a track record if [of?] success in development before you get the green light fir [for?] research.
Did you really mean to say this? It doesn't make any sense. Academics virtually never do development. For academics, the publication is the product, and nothing else. Over a period of close to twenty-five years of trying to work with academics in computer and information science, I can recall less than a handful of cases where anything was developed, or even where it was intended to develop anything (and in some of those cases the developer actually suffered in terms of his position because he was doing "development" rather than "research" -- Fabio Ciravegna, whom you might know, is a prime example before he left ITC-irst). Just look at grant applications (and the results) and see what "development" has ever been done. Maybe you mean something different by "research" and "development" than the non-academic world does.

But this is just turning into an academic spat. The absurdity remains when academics argue that teaching is not the primary role of their school and that it is sensible to create positions of "teaching professors" as though this should not be a redundant term. It is just a measure of the unreal world that has become normality for them. So harking back to the title of this thread, "Are colleges really to blame?" Well, duh.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

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knuxie wrote:So would Indiana Jones have been a more or less effective teacher had he NOT been the world traveler he was?
Less. If you don't believe me, ask him - there are numerous quotes to this effect in the films - usually at the beginning, as he is on the way out the door...

Although, if I were his Chair, I'm not sure I would put him in charge of the "Study Abroad" program.

If you are a "teacher" in Indiana, your goal is to be known and respected in Indianapolis.

If you are a "professor" in Indiana, your goal is to be known and respected in Berlin.

I must sign off now - my plane leaves in the morning - meetings in Lübeck and Baden Baden...
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

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sloan wrote: If you are a "professor" in Indiana, your goal is to be known and respected in Berlin.

I must sign off now - my plane leaves in the morning - meetings in Lübeck and Baden Baden...
Well, not Berlin; but I recommend the spa beside the Roman baths.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by Tuba-G Bass »

The same thing happens in my field,
Television Broadcasting and Production.
There are all sorts of folks who get into this field, but never studied it in College,
unlike me! :mrgreen:
And so there just are not enough jobs for all the folks who are taking this in college,
or even worse, paying to go to a private institution like Full Sail.
:tuba:
Cheers,
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

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ghmerrill wrote:
sloan wrote:If "success" is the only acceptable outcome, then it is "development", not "research".
This is a typical academic attitude towards "research" -- to claim that it cannot be judged on any criterion of success.
Not what I said. Please try to be accurate when re-phrasing. Better yet - quote, don't re-phrase.
ghmerrill wrote:
sloan wrote:Usually, you need a track record if [of?] success in development before you get the green light fir [for?] research.
Did you really mean to say this? It doesn't make any sense. Academics virtually never do development.
No? Not so much *after* they become academics. While in training, they do a LOT of it.
Most research involves considerable "development" - but it's largely for self-consumption (see the "Methods" section). It's just not the direct deliverable. I'm sorry that it doesn't "make sense" to you. It makes perfect sense to me. A past history of doing successful "development" work is an absolute prerequisite for getting approval/funding for your first "research" product. One of the criteria for judging a grant applition is "is the PI competent to carry out the research". Being able to do "development" is part of that competence. Later on, you may be able to hire someone to do the development work for you (often trainees/apprentices looking to earn their stripes) - but you need to demonstrate the basic skills to get into the game in the first place. By the time one of my PhD students gets around to writing a dissertation proposal, they have already done LOTS of "development" work (usually on projects where *I* am doing the "research"). After that dissertation proposal gets approved, they do a lot *more* "development" work - it's just that we don't talk or write about it very much. It's often slightly sub-standard because it isn't made idiot-proof for an end user - but make no mistake, there's a lot of fast moving feet under that smoothly gliding duck. It's not what we sell - that doesn't mean we don't do it.
ghmerrill wrote: But this is just turning into an academic spat.
gee...whose fault is that?
The absurdity remains when academics argue that teaching is not the primary role of their school and that it is sensible to create positions of "teaching professors" as though this should not be a redundant term.
Excuse me - has anyone in this discussion made such a statement? Who? Where?
I will gladly grant as self-evident that the title of "teaching professor" is an abomination.
Someone who *only* teaches is an "Instructor". Someone who *only* does research is a "Research Associate" or (as Rick points out, perhaps a "Research Engineer). Someone who *only* does administration is a "Dean". Professors do a little bit of each. One activity informs and energizes the other. Take away one leg and the tripod falls over.

Part of the problem is that most people who interact with professors do so in only one of these three roles. Reading these "discussions" is a lot like listening to the 12 blind men describing an elephant. Some folk work with elephants for years before finding out that they have eyes, a trunk and ears. They are too busy shoveling.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

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ghmerrill wrote:
sloan wrote: If you are a "professor" in Indiana, your goal is to be known and respected in Berlin.

I must sign off now - my plane leaves in the morning - meetings in Lübeck and Baden Baden...
Well, not Berlin; but I recommend the spa beside the Roman baths.
You mean, this one?
Badruinensmall.jpg
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

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sloan wrote: Excuse me - has anyone in this discussion made such a statement? Who? Where?
I will gladly grant as self-evident that the title of "teaching professor" is an abomination.
Someone who *only* teaches is an "Instructor". Someone who *only* does research is a "Research Associate" or (as Rick points out, perhaps a "Research Engineer). Someone who *only* does administration is a "Dean". Professors do a little bit of each. One activity informs and energizes the other.
Er ... no.

First you denied a couple of times that teaching is the primary role of the university. If you want to reconsider that, fine.
Take away one leg and the tripod falls over.
No. If you aren't compelled by the historical argument, then let's try a logical one.

According to the University of Alabama's mission statement (with which I assume you are familiar), the mission is
To advance the intellectual and social condition of the people of the State through quality programs of teaching, research, and service.
So there are several goals here including teaching, research, and service. If you take away service, do you still have a university? Yes. The result of teaching and research leaves you with a university.

If you take away research, do you have a university? Yes. The result of teaching and service leaves you with a university.

If you take away research and service, do you still have a university? Yes. You might argue that it's not an optimal university, but it's a university.

Now suppose instead you take away teaching and leave research and service. Do you have a university? No. You have a "think tank" or a "research organization". But it is not a university. No one would call it that. The only leg that makes the tripod fall over when it is removed is teaching. That tells you that teaching is primary.

Is teaching the primary role of the university? Yes it is.

It is simply not true that someone who only teaches is an instructor (except perhaps by your own definition). You know better than that. We both know people whose job title is "instructor" and who do research. And we both know people whose job title is "professor" (or "assistant professor", or "adjunct professor", or "associate professor", or ...) and who don't do research (for one reason or another). You really can't make anything out of the job title argument. It's both incorrect and irrelevant. C'mon. You know that teaching is the primary role of the university -- and always has been.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

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ghmerrill wrote:Nothing explicit or implied about the goal being to "develop new technology" that I can see. Nothing about "research".
You use of the term "deviant" is not designed to foster friendly debate.

The Morrill Act of 1862 that funded the first round of land-grant colleges was indeed aimed at teaching. But it did not take long to realize that they had to have something to teach that was worth the students going to college to learn and to advance the state of the art. So, they started doing research. This started with private and state funding but was eventually funded at the federal level, and specifically attached to the land-grant colleges, by the Hatch Act of 1887. That act funded agricultural experiment stations specifically targeted at developing new agricultural technologies and methodologies. Most major land-grant colleges established agricultural experiment stations using that funding, and the funding grew with a number of subsequent legislative acts to become greater than the original proceeds from the land grants themselves. Faculty members were expected to work with the researchers in the experiment stations to develop and teach these new technologies and methodologies. And, as the Industrial Revolution proceeded and the country became more industrial than agricultural, the agricultural experiment stations were joined by engineering experiment stations.

Prior to the Industrial Revolution, colleges taught liberal arts and science--languages, history, philosophy, the classics, physics, chemistry, mathematics, and so on. They were never aimed at industrial technological pursuits. The Morrill Act's stated purpose was "to promote the liberal and practical education of the industrial classes in the several pursuits and professions in life." It was thus aimed at technological pursuits and applications which were seen as lagging in the colleges and universities of the day. This was a whole new application for colleges.

But if you look at the research done prior, it was done by academics, in university situations for the most part. Newton was a fellow of Cambridge (read: professor) during his creative period when he invented calculus and characterized the laws of gravity and motion. Johnson, who wrote the first comprehensive dictionary of English, was at Oxford. Men like these were at such institutions primarily to develop new knowledge and then secondarily to teach it. They got their gigs at these colleges not because of what they knew that others knew, but because of what they knew that was otherwise unknown.

The first secular music school was the Paris Conservatory, founded in 1795. Conservatories then and now have a strong vocational training component. The notion of music as a scholarly pursuit is much more recent, and not really any older than engineering, for that matter.

So, the Oxbridge of Newton and Johnson, which rode on the heels of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, expected faculty to shine light into darkness (the act of which defines research). Even colleges established to provide teaching in vocational pursuits such as engineering, as they were seen 150 years ago, were given a research charge only a few years later. Research has been part of their charge for 125 years, which means that it was part of many land-grant college charters before they were even formed.

One big question is what constitutes research in music. Some of it might be historical, and some of might be philosophical (certainly one of the classical pursuits of academia). But some of it is simply those who usher in new musical forms that achieve significance. That compulsion to be innovative (which is perhaps the research of music though I fight that conflation in engineering) has its downside--it has led to a lot of academic contemporary avant-garde that will languish in well-deserved obscurity hopefully sooner rather than later--but it carries on the role of academia to shine a light into darkness in whatever field is being pursued. That role is not new.

Now to address your comment written after I started this post: If you take service away from teaching and research, you have a university that does not interact with the professions it supports, and it become irrelevant. If you take away the research, pretty soon what is being taught is what the professors learned only from their professors, and the knowledge base becomes inbred. Students learn stuff that has been superseded by new knowledge developed elsewhere. The whole point of academic standards (which are based on research) is to prevent exactly that. If you remove the teaching from research and service, you develop new knowledge and interact with the society of its practitioners, but you do not pass along that new knowledge. Those three elements are all necessary for universities to sustain relevance.

Rick "thinking the teaching versus research debate is a bit like the musicality versus technique debate--the correct answer is yes" Denney
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by Rick Denney »

ghmerrill wrote:Did you really mean to say this? It doesn't make any sense. Academics virtually never do development. For academics, the publication is the product, and nothing else. Over a period of close to twenty-five years of trying to work with academics in computer and information science, I can recall less than a handful of cases where anything was developed, or even where it was intended to develop anything (and in some of those cases the developer actually suffered in terms of his position because he was doing "development" rather than "research" -- Fabio Ciravegna, whom you might know, is a prime example before he left ITC-irst). Just look at grant applications (and the results) and see what "development" has ever been done. Maybe you mean something different by "research" and "development" than the non-academic world does.
I won't recount my research credentials. Let's just say that I have them, and from a broader perspective than most university academics, of which I am not one.

There is more basic research than you realize, and lots of it happens in the private sector with managed risk. But they define what they want to learn from basic research, and evaluate frequently whether they are learning it. If they are not and don't see a way to manage the risk of not figuring it out, they abandon the research before it becomes too costly. Even so, many corporations have spent zillions on research that never resulted in development. But what does not work is as important in the knowledge base as what does work, and learning for the first time that something doesn't work is nearly as valuable as learning what does. Frankly, this sort of failure reporting is more common in the private sector than in university research. Most of the research programs with which I work, both private and public, are multi-phased, with each phase being required to show promise before subsequent phases are funded.

I've met only a very few academics in my field that are only interested in writing papers that don't discuss development. With maybe one or two exceptions over 30 years of involvement with research, academic researchers are universally interested in establishing the product of their research into the mainstream of the practice, and nearly all of those realize that teaching is only one method of doing that. They all understand that the new ideas are just academic masturbation until it is accepted and put into practice. I don't know where you get your sample, but I'm glad it's not my field.

Rick "hearing a lot of theorizing" Denney
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by sloan »

I would think that a philosopher would know better than to beg the question.

I'm done.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by Michael Bush »

I can't see why it makes sense to any knowledgeable person to try to make all institutions, or even all public institutions, have the same teaching-oriented mission. Why should Clemson, say, or William and Mary, become a community college? That's just dumb.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by Biggs »

My advice:

Don't like college? Don't go.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

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Biggs wrote:My advice:
Don't like college? Don't go.
Works for me.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by Biggs »

bloke wrote:
TubaRay wrote:
Biggs wrote:My advice:
Don't like college? Don't go.
Works for me.
...and stop taxing us for it...
I attend a private institution, so, doing my best to help you out on that front.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by Michael Bush »

I haven't been able to find data for Tennessee that isn't behind a paywall. But the University of Michigan gets 7% of its budget from the taxpayers. Somewhere there might be a public university that gets 35%, but I doubt it. Most are under 20%. Taxpayers, through the legislatures, already have influence over state universities that far outruns the level of support they're providing. So "public" higher education is just about a thing of the past already.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by TUBAD83 »

talleyrand wrote:I haven't been able to find data for Tennessee that isn't behind a paywall. But the University of Michigan gets 7% of its budget from the taxpayers. Somewhere there might be a public university that gets 35%, but I doubt it. Most are under 20%. Taxpayers, through the legislatures, already have influence over state universities that far outruns the level of support they're providing. So "public" higher education is just about a thing of the past already.
I would add that the VAST majority of universities, public AND private (to include all of the Ivy League schools), get money from both the federal government and the states where they are located. My education was subsidized, as was all those who attended college after WWII. There is a tiny percentage of colleges that do not accept government money (Bob Jones University, for example)...VERY few. Those who would call for the end of public funding of colleges and universities, please send back your degrees...today.

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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

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TUBAD83 wrote: My education was subsidized, as was all those who attended college after WWII. There is a tiny percentage of colleges that do not accept government money (Bob Jones University, for example)...VERY few. Those who would call for the end of public funding of colleges and universities, please send back your degrees...today.
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Re: Are Colleges really to Blame?

Post by TUBAD83 »

Joe, I'm sorry you have such a dim view of college--my first year of college was at an university I would NEVER EVER recommend to anyone and , in my view, should have either been completely re-staffed or closed down entirely years ago. Having said that, I still believe in taxpaper support of colleges and universities--the day we stop doing that, we will all but guarantee this country will cease to be a world power and ensure our further decline.

As to the op, in Texas, the schools of music at Baylor, SMU, Rice, Texas, Texas Tech, and U. of Houston have very high standards and their auditions are not for the faint of heart. These schools have excellent reputations for producing highly talented graduates, most of whom will find work--and these schools try to do as much as they can to make sure their graduates have every opportunity to find work.

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