Euphonium conversion

[quesonegro]

Hi comrades,
I have a question:
I'm wondering if it would be possible to "slap" a F-tuba valve section on a Bb euphonium?
For different reasons I sometimes need to play really low parts on the euphonium where tuba or cimbasso is not always an option. I hate how the euphonium is so narrow in the lower range and I'd like to find a way to change the instrument. In this particular case I can't buy a new instrument but I can have it altered, even radically so.
Is it possible to turn it into a F horn, playing wise kinda turning it into a tiny F-tuba?
I know this is a bizarre, round-about way of doing things but never mind that...I just need to now whether it is feasible from a technical, hardware, sound/tuning point of view...

Live long and prosper!

//Mattis

[TheHatTuba]

,

[Bob Kolada]

You could put a bigger bore quint valve on a euph though the travel tubas might be easier.
I know you said no new horns, but try a Miraphone 1258 with a big bass/contrabone mp; those things are WIDE open down low.
Tiny/cheap F tubas might also be an option.

[Wyvern]

I would be doubtful that what you are considering would work simply because the pipe sizes would not match to join and you would ruin the conical bore.

For using a Bubbie F tuba instead - although I might like to sell you one, I doubt it would provide the open low register you want. Its bore is actually smaller than a euphonium.

I would think the C/Bb tenor tuba might work better. Large bore and with rotary valves it has good low register and is still fine for playing the high euphonium parts

Or what about using larger mouthpiece with euphonium? - That may provide the easiest and cheapest solution

[imperialbari]

The videos I have seen of your (the OP’s) playing were done on cimbasso and bass trombone, and they wouldn’t suggest you having problems with the euph low range.

I for a few years doubled on bass bone and euph in a local railway band, where I often had to help out the lone tuba, even substitute him in rehearsals. My YEP-641 is no bad instrument, but I did not really like the range right over the pedal until I had a main tuning slide trigger mounted. What some others call stuffiness in that range I tend to call lack of resonance due to less than precise lengths of tubing. Even with correctly calculated lengths of tubing for E, Eb, D, and Db, some players run into problems because their embouchures tend sharp in that range. A problem fixed via the slide positions on the bass bone. Low D is best fingered 34, but it also works well with 124 + a bit of help from the trigger.

Part of the problem also tends to be the mouthpieces, which often are more directed towards brilliant solo playing. I use the Yeo signature with an opened-up backbore that leaves the throat intact at least from the cup side. The taper profile also has been made more barrel shaped. I did that to take out some brightness, but it also helps the lowest notes.

On my Marzan euph the left hand is free, so there I place my thumb within the crook of the 4th slide to adjust the low notes. I do not like the ergonomics of the original tuning rod for the main slide.

Klaus

[quesonegro]

True, MY lower range is not the issue, hehe...
I do think you have a good point there Klaus...a main tuning slide trigger would probably help!
The general consensus from the techs I've talked too is that it's a bad idea, or at least a long shot at best.
Well, if you don't ask you won't get answers

Thanks for the feedback!

//Mattis

[OldsRecording]

You could try it with a G bass bugle, you'd only have to add a foot or two to drop to F

I would think one of these would do nicely.

Dynasty%20II%20eupho.jpg

[Conn 2J CC]

You could try it with a G bass bugle, you'd only have to add a foot or two to drop to F.

I would think one of these would do nicely.

I second the motion (or is that 3rd the motion?) made by KiltieTuba and OldsRecording. You could find a G Euphonium Bugle to be just what you're looking, as a horn that could possibly be changed into an F concert Euphonium. I used to see them offered regularly on eBay for no more than a couple of hundred dollars, although I haven't checked there for a while.

I own a DEG Dynasty II two piston Euphonium Bugle, which I spent most of the summer of 1983 playing for Geneseo Knights Drum and Bugle Corps. Mine is not for sale (and never will be), but I've often thought about buying another one to use in a cimbasso project. I love the sound of these old Euph Bugles, and, IMHO, think they could make excellent Cimbasso bodies. Anyway, good luck fulfilling your needs.

[UDELBR]

FRENCH TUBA!

[aqualung]

All our baritone and euphonium G bugles have been built out of the major components of conventional Bb band instruments. So they are essentially Bb horns permanently crooked in G.
Dropping them down to F would be exactly the same thing as holding down a conventional 4th valve.

The 2-piston DEG euphonium bugle was built in the 80s by Willson.

[OldsRecording]

Of course, you could just do the Roger Bobo thing and leave it in G.

[Conn 2J CC]

All our baritone and euphonium G bugles have been built out of the major components of conventional Bb band instruments. So they are essentially Bb horns permanently crooked in G.
Dropping them down to F would be exactly the same thing as holding down a conventional 4th valve.

The 2-piston DEG euphonium bugle was built in the 80s by Willson.

I agree that all (or at least the vast majority) of G Bugles were built with parts for Bb instruments extended for the key of G. But if the original poster of this thread is in need of a Euphonium body to put an F Tuba valve set on that's larger bored than the original Euphonium's valves, this might be a cheap way to go, with better results than just holding down a 4th valve. And yes, Willson made DEG's bugles in the 1980s, or at least a lot of them. I know mine was made by Willson.

[quesonegro]

The issue is rather that I have a euphonium that I'd like to alter to play more openly in the sub staff range. Anything is basically possible as long as I keep the euphonium as the horn being altered...

[imperialbari]

The issue is rather that I have a euphonium that I'd like to alter to play more openly in the sub staff range. Anything is basically possible as long as I keep the euphonium as the horn being altered...

The less radical and hence cheaper approaches still in my view are about allowing the specific (for you) correctness of length of tubing and about mouthpiece selection and optimizing of the backbore profile.

You certainly have at least one mouthpiece allowing for full sound, freedom of blowing, and good projection in the bassbone range right above the open fundamental. As I hear some showbands, they want a fairly bright sound from their bottom bassbone. If that low part is played well in tune, good overall brass section intonation is achieved much easier by that richness in high overtones in the bassbone sound. So you maybe should go for a variant of the same mouthpiece, possibly with a deeper cup, certainly with a a more barrel shaped backbore.

As for correction of tube length there have been at least 3 variants of triggers on the euphonium. Hirsbrunner with its somewhat clumsy trigger working on the 1st and 3rd slides. Miraphone’s even worse 3rd slide trigger, which immediately caused pain in my left thumb, when I tried (and rejected) their then new model in 1993 or so. And then the main tuning slide trigger, which derives from the version B&H Japan mounted on Steven Mead’s personal euph some time before 1997. My own aftermarket trigger on the YEP-641 is a commercial German made part. Not well made, but improved by the mounting tech and by myself along the road of usage.

The weakness of the triggers on the valve slides is an obvious need to have the valves vented. The weakness of the main tuning slide trigger is about a moving part touching your body. I have to play with my euphs supported by stays anyway, which takes away the latter problem.

To check the efficiency of my air support and of my embouchure agility I have a test on my bassbones which also takes exact valve and slide movements. Slurring from the open pedal Bb to the C and the B natural right above shall be smooth in both directions. Actually the main test is whether I can slur smoothly between that low Bb played as pedal and the same note played as 2nd partial with the double length of tubing. The latter variant is impossible on euphonium, but try pulling the 3rd or 4th slides in varying lengths to test whether the slurs to C and B natural are improved. That will reveal whether the improved tube length approach works for you.

Klaus