Thoughts on mouthpieces for students.

[USStuba04]

Where I live directors tend to recommend the "standards", Bach 18, 24aw, and Hellebergs. 

Lately I think those mouthpiece are a little to big.

I did some testing on smaller mouthpieces with a few of my students and they all had the same results; better sound, tonal core, and projection on the field. 

So I am in search of a mouthpiece that can get the job done for middle school and high school students.

After some testing this week if a student were to ask me what to buy I would say Yamaha 67c4.

Thoughts?

What do you recommend?

[BAtlas]

on the field.

I think the rule of thumb is, "if it sounds good, do it."

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the Bach mouthpieces. I'm not usually a fan of hellebergs on the field; I prefer them in a concert setting (although I have heard many players use a helleberg on a sousaphone and sound great).

$.02

[TubaRay]

I believe the size(diam.) should relate to the kid's face. Some can go with a "full-size" mpc. Others are better off with something smaller. In a generic sense, I'd recommend the Conn Helleberg 7b, or the Bach 22. Bigger face = regular Conn Helleberg or Bach 18. I used to play on Bach mouthpieces. I no longer like them, but then again, I like flat and sharp(no pun intended, here). Flat rim, not rounded. Personally, I don't understand the logic with the Bach 24AW. It is a narrow diameter that is quite deep. Maybe some mouthpiece expert can tell me why that should work well. I believe it is a very poor beginner mouthpiece, and not particularly good for anyone.

OK. Take your marks. Get set. Flame!

[TexTuba]

OK. Take your marks. Get set. Flame!

[TubaRay]

OK. Take your marks. Get set. Flame!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Thank you.

[ghmerrill]

I used to use a Schilke 66 (which is kind of a small Helleberg) and liked it a lot (used it both on a 321 Eb and my BBb). Now that I've come back to playing, I've become disenchanted with the Hellebergs and really like my PT-89 -- but I think it's just a good fit for me and my horn, and I really like the sound with it.

You might try something like a Schilke 66 (or maybe even the smaller 62). But you need to actually try them. I've often been surprised at mouthpieces that I thought would be really really great for me but turned out to not even be close.

I believe that a little while ago in a different thread bloke referred to the 24AW as a "door stop". I concur. I am a huge non-fan of the Bach mouthpieces -- except perhaps as close-quarter defense weapons. But so much of this is personal anatomy and preference.

[opus37]

Consider a Denis Wick 3L or 4L. They are smaller and generally give good sound.

[Tom]

So are you guys planning to have all of your students (or their parents) special order odd-sized Bachs, Schilkes, or Denis Wicks? Do the stores serving your local market (where the parents will shop) actually stock this stuff?

Good luck with that.

It's hard enough (in my experience) to get them to show up with a Bach 24aw or Bach 18, let alone a Conn Helleberg!

Getting them started (period) is more important than if they're on a 18, 24aw, or 7b. When progress warrants and the mouthpiece is really holding them back, THEN clue them in to the world of botique mouthpieces.

[ghmerrill]

Getting them started (period) is more important than if they're on a 18, 24aw, or 7b. When progress warrants and the mouthpiece is really holding them back, THEN clue them in to the world of botique mouthpieces.

I'll grant that there's really something to this. And of course we've all seen similar recommendations from some of the great players who say "Never mind looking for what you think is a better mouthpiece. Just pick one and learn to get good with that." And certainly beginning students have no "baseline" (no pun intended) to compare against.

But I know that if I had been stuck with, say, a Bach 24AW and compelled to learn on that, I would have felt some significant degree of discomfort and discouragement. It doesn't seem unreasonable to acquire a few alternative mouthpieces of different sizes and styles to serve as trial mouthpieces for students to try out and, with the teacher's recommendation, select from. Certainly some of the mouthpieces mentioned so far have hardly been "boutique". So, for example, being able to let them try the 24AW, the 18, the 7b, a Kelly or two, etc. might be truly advantageous. The Kellys, in fact, provide definite advantages in terms of cost and durability.

[Donn]

You might try something like a Schilke 66 (or maybe even the smaller 62).

I'll second that, particularly the 66 (62 is too shallow to be a great contrabass mouthpiece, in my view.)

On availability, I think the only small mouthpiece that gets cloned much is Bach 25. Thoughts on that one? Too small?

I haven't ever seen one of those 67C4s. It's an odd model name - the "67" makes me think "yes, yes!" but the "C4" has me thinking "no, no!"

[cjk]

I cannot imagine starting out a kid on a Bach 24AW. The rim is comically wide and the throat is massive.

I'm assuming that by "students", the original poster means "kids".

Kids mess stuff up. I can't imagine starting them on costly mouthpieces.

I would start them on Kelly or Faxx stuff. Kelly makes 18, Helleberg, and 25 models. Faxx makes 18, 25, Helleberg, and Helleberg 7b sizes.

"25" sized mouthpieces are quite small. If those are not small enough, then I'd suggest that your kids are probably not big enough to play the tuba.

I would personally lean towards the Kelly stuff as it is cheaper and will be more difficult to screw up, but the Faxx stuff comes in more sizes. I'd then maybe use the Faxx stuff as a step up.

[USStuba04]

(Just fyi if you're not familiar, the 67c4 is not a mix between a schilke 67 with a c4 rim [which is what I thought originally]).

I am not super concerned with the rim size as much as the cup volume. (except with the smaller kids).

For example, the rim on the Bobo Symphonic is bigger than an 18 (and "much" bigger than a 24aw) but all the students I tested sounded way better and had a much better low register (although bright sounding) with the Bobo (due to the shallow cup).

Haven't tested a lot the middle school kids yet. But I am thinking the 67c4 is gonna work well with them too.

Gonna be giving a 25 a shot.

Thoughts on the schilke 66 ?

[iiipopes]

Keeping the average household budget in mind for a parent to purchase a mouthpiece that will get dropped, and the possibility "Junior" may quit band at some point, and probably doesn't have access to private lessons:

Junior High: Bach 25
Underclassman High school: Conn 7B
Upperclassman High school: Conn 120S
Upperclassman with private lessons: whatever the instructor says
Marching: Kelly 18 for a souzy, Kellyberg for the shoulder "corps" horns. (I am not a fan of anything but Lexan for marching, as it will get dropped.)

Yes, there are tonnes of other mouthpieces out there. And there are the facsimiles. But the facsimiles, such as Blessing, Faxx, etc., are now approaching the price of the real deal "street price," so why bother?

If the budget is greater, or the student has a private instructor, then the universe is wide open.

[Donn]

Thoughts on the schilke 66 ?

Well, since it looks like no one but me has anything to say about that ... It's a classic Helleberg shape - deep, with no bowl at the bottom and a somewhat flattened rim. (Note that many makers use these terms, but apply them to compromises that are actually a little bowl shaped. This is more like the real thing.) Most similar other mouthpiece is probably the Conn 7B, which is about the same depth but a little wider, so for some people it comes off as a shallow mouthpiece. The Schilke 66, though the same depth, is narrower and hence steeper sloped, so it has what I hear as a classic tuba sound - I love the 7B, but it's a little on the bright side. I wouldn't call the 66 a small mouthpiece, but it is smaller than average these days.

I guess it's a little more expensive new than one would hope for with a student mouthpiece. Likewise, Marcinkiewicz makes an ST series, somewhat shallow cup of moderate width that's reputed to be easy to play, but it's twice the price of a FAXX or something. The only inexpensive Helleberg style mouthpieces I can think of right away are more like copies of the larger 120S.

[USStuba04]

Here's my problem with the Kelly...

They do not send the same vibrations (produce the same quality of sound) thru the horn as a brass mouthpiece.

Flame all you want!!

I used a Kelly a lot in the military (venues were always different and the mouthpiece always felt the same on the face) when playing quintet and marching, it was always noticed by the other musicians, especially outside. The quintet HATED it!!

Flame flame flame

[TubaRay]

Keeping the average household budget in mind for a parent to purchase a mouthpiece that will get dropped, and the possibility "Junior" may quit band at some point, and probably doesn't have access to private lessons:

Junior High: Bach 25
Underclassman High school: Conn 7B
Upperclassman High school: Conn 120S
Upperclassman with private lessons: whatever the instructor says
Marching: Kelly 18 for a souzy, Kellyberg for the shoulder "corps" horns. (I am not a fan of anything but Lexan for marching, as it will get dropped.)

Yes, there are tonnes of other mouthpieces out there. And there are the facsimiles. But the facsimiles, such as Blessing, Faxx, etc., are now approaching the price of the real deal "street price," so why bother?

If the budget is greater, or the student has a private instructor, then the universe is wide open.

I am pretty much in agreement with you, right down the line. I usually prefer the Bach 22, myself, but that is a minor point. Excellent rundown.

[TubaRay]

Here's my problem with the Kelly...

They do not send the same vibrations (produce the same quality of sound) thru the horn as a brass mouthpiece.

Flame all you want!!

I used a Kelly a lot in the military (venues were always different and the mouthpiece always felt the same on the face) when playing quintet and marching, it was always noticed by the other musicians, especially outside. The quintet HATED it!!

Flame flame flame

Here's my flame(and since I live in Texas, it is not difficult to get one started, right now):

I bought a Kellyberg a couple of years ago, with the hopes of it working out. It did not. It doesn't feel the same, and it certainly doesn't produce the same as a standard Helleberg. So....I agree.

[SplatterTone]

Not just face size to consider, but face muscle strength too. After one builds muscle strength, then the fat rimmed mouthpieces get in the way. But when one is a beginning weakling, those fat rims act kind of like a knee brace to help support a flabby mug and assist in better tone until the student has built the muscle strength to no longer need the assist.

Of the fatties, the Yamaha 66D4 was my favorite crutch for about two years until I had the strength to gradually move to narrower rims and bigger diameters. When one needs the help, admit it and get it.

A man's got to know his limitations.
- Harry Callahan (Magnum Force)

[jonesbrass]

Here's my problem with the Kelly...

They do not send the same vibrations (produce the same quality of sound) thru the horn as a brass mouthpiece.

Flame all you want!!

I used a Kelly a lot in the military (venues were always different and the mouthpiece always felt the same on the face) when playing quintet and marching, it was always noticed by the other musicians, especially outside. The quintet HATED it!!

Flame flame flame

I won't flame you either way . . . when I was with the 76th Army Band we played quite a few outside Christmas gigs with the brass quintet. One particular gig was outside the Emergency entrance to Landstuhl Hospital in sub-freezing weather. My mouthpiece was so cold it practically froze to my face. Needless to say, I started carrying a plastic rim around just in case. Back then, we didn't have the Kelly, we had the "DEG Astro-Nylon" mouthpieces and delrin screw rims for some of the modular mouthpieces. I would not blame anyone for using a Kelly when playing outside in the cold .

[USStuba04]

I agree the Kellys have their place, when it is cold, the Kelly comes out.

I am not sure I completely agree with the whole fat rim crutch thing. Sure maybe it can help some younger students, but for kids with a small face, that fat rim can be in the way ( in the nose). On the other side, there are PLENTY of big name pros that use a fat rim... The Bobo pieces all have thick rims, Jim Self, and then there is that gigantic Deck mouthpiece.

Of course it is complete personal preference and some may feel that the thick rim is in the way, I use to.