Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"

[cjk]

Hello again!
After a night's sleep and a cup of coffee, I have come up with a thought on why some folks are so upset about "Chinese" Tubas!
With players like Mark Jones and Rich Serpa, and even Neptune himself endorsing these horns, and Mack(who hadn't touched a Tuba for the better part of a year) getting such great results from his JINBAO, I've come to the conclusion folks are jealous! ....

Ummmm kay. Soooooooo, what was in that coffee?

[cjk]

Elephant, stop being so caddy. Anyone with sense will try the horn out before buying it. Stop bashing products in an open forum if you want to say you are making a complaint. Actually make it in private. Like a decent, respectable adult.

This thread was meant to be racially sensitive - not meant for your opinion based on frustrations with instruments at work. No one cares about that.

I have no agenda in this forum, I just think it should be said that an ignore feature should be added so that I don't have to read jerks' posts if I don't care to do so. Unfortunately that luxury isn't available, yet.

You can go into the preferences and add other usernames to your foes list. After you log in, posts by people on your foes list will be hidden.

[Lingon]

I hope I have done my bit this last 10 days in China to get them to improve consistency. Guess will find out when we receive next orders!

You have let us all participate in part of your tour, where you hopefully found out stuff that will be of benefit for many and talked with the makers and also hopefully had a good time on your journey. All for free, for us that is. That is great.
Now, as you said we will see what happens with the next delivery, but what was the direct reaction from the makers when you discussed quality control?

Regarding the real makers brand vs stenciling. I, like some others, think that in the long run it would be better to use the real names so we know what we buy. As a parenthesis I remember when I bought that cheap japanese kamasa tools set many years ago and used it a lot until someone else decided that I should not have it anymore. Today kamasa is a high quality brand, still the same name. Then if we like the stuff we can tell others about these products like we do with the miras, conns, cervenys, larks, holtons etc. I also know that at least for jinbao the real name are beginning to show up here and there. In the US a couple of the sellers are now using the real name, in germany musicstore.com uses the real name, you will do a test etc. Maybe as a step on the way use the method with sellers name made by jinbao or whatever etc. Those makers have now, some already in the business for 40 years, matured and I think they may be able to stand for their products even in the west. It is also something about globalisation. If spare parts are accesible in a manner that equals or better parts made in other places then things will be even more interesting.

About quality control and spare parts I may say, after personal and colleagues experiences, that not even the US quality control is that good all times, and I do not know how many months some spare parts for my american made horns have taken to be delivered. Some parts not even possible to get from the company that made the horns. I remember the horn that nearly fell in pieces when lifted, many valve linkages that was so poorly soldered that the parts did fall of the horn, tenons to small to fit properly in the receivers, badly aligned and fitting slides etc. Not only on mass produced stuff by the large makers but also from smaller boutique instruments.

Sorry for the rant, but I had to.

Now let us hope that everyone will be happy with all the alternatives both regarding costs and quaility that we the users/players will have to choose from. May there be even more young people that can have a chance and the possibilities to start to play tuba and mature to great players that may have the knowledge how to master a musical instrument, be proud of it and have fun playing together with other people.

[Rivercity Tuba]

Hi all,

Just wanted to post and say that my experience with Tom McGrady at Mack brass has been on the up and up. He had 100% disclosure on issues with the instruments he had.He could speak on it, because he opened them and played them all. I know a horn came with a little ding and he was repairing it while I was there. Even though he fixed it he still disclosed the issue and offered to knock $200.00 off the price. Made me think that he didn't need to do that and I was dealing with someone that is very honest. I can also comment that Tom is in another field and makes well into the six figures. He is doing this because he loves tuba and his students. His profit margin is small, it isn't about the money. As I said earlier, Tom does go through the horns and discloses all about them including playing characteristics. He even told me he was going to stop importing a model because he thought there were too many issues to sell and be able to sleep at night, so he ate the cost. He also told me there were several tubas he tried and wont import them till they improve. If you have any questions about the horns I played feel free to PM me.

Richard Serpa
Principal Tuba/Richmond Virginia Symphony

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Just wanted to state for the record similar experiences as what Rich above says in regards to Al Triplett, a.k.a. Big Bottom Brass NW. Al is doing this not to make his living as an instrument dealer, but because of his desire to bring quality low cost horns to folks. I have had nothing but positive experiences with Al. I have heard similar positive experiences about Tom, a.k.a. MACK Brass. These guys are allowing folks to acquire excellent horns at prices that make you do a double take! I, for one, am thankful to Al, Tom, and Neptune for their desire to do this. This gives brass players another option in their 'hunt' for horns. If anyone would like to contact me personally re. these horns and/or the importers, please feel free to do so--or, better yet, if you are in the Western New York area and want to try the imported horns out, just give me 24 hours notice, and if I am free, you are more than welcomed to stop by and check them out.
Also, I am writing this post not because someone or some folks asked me to, but because I fell it was needed.

Regards-
Mark Jones
Buffalo, NY

[Wyvern]

Now, as you said we will see what happens with the next delivery, but what was the direct reaction from the makers when you discussed quality control?

They explained to me that they already have controls in place to check at every stage and send back to the worker concerned if anything defective. At JinBao the checker was in green shirt (against the assemble workers in blue) and was pointed out to me. On us commenting that this was apparently not picking up everything, they promised to review their procedures. They appreciate that they loose business when products are defective, so I'm hopeful they will work to improve. At least through my wife explaining in Chinese I am confident they understand the issues.

[Biggs]

TL;DR

[knarfman]

I'm going to start importing Communist Chinese tuba players and start using them in all of my orchestras. I'd bet that I can get them to play a symphony for only $40 (vs. $400 for the typical American or German tuba player), and (except for a few intonation issues) they'll play just as well.

Based on concerns previously expressed on this thread, a few questions arise about this, for example:

Are you going to check the valve alignments before you let these tuba players out of your "shop".
Do you have a reliable source for spare parts?
Will American repair techs (they're called "doctors" in this context, I believe) work on them?
What name are you going to stamp on their bells (or wherever)?
Will these tuba players provide "The Attitude, the Authority, the American Tuba Sound"?
etc. etc.

[123go]

I've been watching this thread play out. As seems to be the case with this forum far too often, a few overly aggressive individuals have taken it in a totally different direction. Those few bullies who dominate Tubenet have now become personal and vulgar (again). For that I apologize to everyone else who has once again been exposed to these stupid tirades. I would also like to apologize to Neptune and those other distributors for this nonsense, and especially Tom McGrady who is a very fine individual, musician, teacher, and low brass enthusiast making a solid and honest contribution to the music community. You have all been unfairly attacked by those fellows who make it so difficult to enjoy Tubenet. If I had any inkling that it might have turned out like this I would never have started the thread.

Although this was not the purpose of this thread I'd like to make a few points.

1. I don't care what anyone's impression of these horns was 30 years ago. ---I do care that these are excellent playing horns that are actually affordable without mortgaging my house. As a player and a teacher I view this as a very good thing.

2. I don't care whose name is stamped on the bell. ---I do care that these are excellent playing horns that are actually affordable without mortgaging my house. As a player and a teacher I view this as a very good thing.

3. In thirty years of playing, and twenty of those as both a professional musician and teacher, I have never had to buy parts of any kind and I have never had a repairman work on my equipment who needed replacement parts of any kind. I don't care whether there are replacement parts easily available. ---I do care that these are excellent playing horns that are actually affordable without mortgaging my house. As a player and a teacher I view this as a very good thing.

I'm going to start importing Communist Chinese tuba players and start using them in all of my orchestras. I'd bet that I can get them to play a symphony for only $40 (vs. $400 for the typical American or German tuba player), and (except for a few intonation issues) they'll play just as well.

One thing I would like all of us to do is to stop all of this Chinese coffee-drinkin' and - while we're at it - stop all of this nose-pickin'.

I yield the floor for three minutes to Mr. Shill.

Wow.......This is the reason I started this thread. This kind of language is offensive to many. Whether you consider yourself a racist, whether you were only joking, or whether you think I've misunderstood your intent, this language is still offensive to many. I suggest more racial sensitivity.

There is my 2 cents. Please feel free to continue your silly shouting, name-calling, and boundless accusations. I'm done with this thread.

[bisontuba]

[quote="the elephant"]......I am going on about the fact that Jin Bao does not care enough about customers to make certain that importers ALL do this; that ALL their importers are honest, test, repair and return faulty merchandise. They box them up, ship them out and wash their hands.......

Hi Wade-
You have peeked my curiosity--which of the European tuba Manufacturers care enough about their customers that they offer a warranty so that if a product from them is faulty, you can have it sent back to the factory? Say, for example, if the pistons are crummy and not 'honed' correctly, or the horn's piston valve ports are not made right and don't align correctly with the tubing ports, or if tubing has 'crimps', or if valve guides are either put on incorrectly or even not put on at all, etc. ---basically I am asking if any of these European makers have a warranty on their products and you can return them if they aren't built right? Do they also check out all their dealers/importers for best service to the clients or for those who can sell the most product?

I am not trying to start any more controversy (this thread has gone on WAY too long....), but am just seeing if I am missing something. I think ALL makers of instruments can have MUCH better quality control--whether in Asia or Europe-or here in the US.

Just my 2 cents......

Take Care-
mark

[TexTuba]

oh poo. You have the sense of humor of a stick of gum.

Hey, don't knock gum! I've seen some funny things gum can do...

[ASTuba]

Ok folks, I am going to chime in here. Not because I want to get into any sort of argument about anything, but I do want to talk about outsourcing from the side of someone who works for the largest US manufacturer of band instruments.

Outsourcing to Asia can be traced back to one company: Leblanc, and most notably, Vito Pascucci. If you look at the history of Asian musical instrument manufacturing, you can see that Vito was the first person to bring in large volumes of instruments from Asia (most notably student level band instruments from Yamaha, at that time). The reason for this is that the high cost of manufacturing in the United States. Because of this, other companies were able to become stronger players in the marketplace due to the price point that they could sell product at.

Selmer started sourcing in Asia in the mid 1990's, if my memory is correct, when they started to bring in product under the Buescher name, while UMI was bringing in trumpets (the Conn 201BY is the one that comes to my mind) around that time frame as well. Again, the reason for this is you as a customer talked with your money and didn't buy higher quality, USA-made instruments due to the price. The difference between how a company like mine sources versus others is that we don't buy anything out of a catalog. We tell the manufacturers what we are looking for, and then test the product that they build to our specifications.

However, the quality will never be to the level that you get from a large, well-established manufacturing plant. I will give you an example. Keep in mind, you pay about $2 USD a week, benefits included, to a person working in a Chinese plant.

A company that I know in China that makes saxophones under a variety of names is actually a conglomerate of 8 households that do one step in the manufacturing process. Now, I don't care how much process and culture you can build, but there's no way that 8 households can build a saxophone to the same level that Selmer Paris, Yamaha, Jupiter, Yanagisawa, or any other major manufacturer can. However, you speak with your dollar, and buy these inferior products.

I've played lots of imported tubas from China. They play fine, but the fit/finish isn't where I'd like it, no parts service, but they do serve a role in the market. Hence why we import a line of tubas under the Holton Collegiate line (keep in mind, we moved the company that sourced these to Asia because the quality went UP from the other companies that built them in the past).

If you want to talk more about this, please feel free to contact me. Like I said before, I'm not going to get into any sort of confrontation, just wanted to present a different view.

Oh and PS http://www.mytalis.com/En/AboutUs.asp

[bisontuba]

[quote="the elephant"][Please do not try and compare your pet Chinese tuba makers with established companies like Miraphone or Meinl-Weston, et al.

Hi Wade-

Huh???? My 'pet Chinese tuba makers?' I will just assume you have had a long day.....I don't have any 'pet' companies, whether from China, the Czech Republic, or Germany....me thinks it is time for the beer ladies on this thread once again.....

And Andy--everyone is pulling for you to bring out a great CC tuba from your company at a great price. I hope it happens!

I am done with this thread.......have a great week everyone!

Regards-
mark

[imperialbari]

Let’s get a bit of real German humour:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKuU21P5EkQ

[imperialbari]

Schiller?

From this thread I would have expected that brand being Shiller. Or even Shriller.

Klaus

[Homerun]

...not worth the effort....deleted post.

[tofu]

[Please do not try and compare your pet Chinese tuba makers with established companies like Miraphone or Meinl-Weston, et al.

Hi Wade-

Huh???? My 'pet Chinese tuba makers?' I will just assume you have had a long day.....I don't have any 'pet' companies, whether from China, the Czech Republic, or Germany....me thinks it is time for the beer ladies on this thread once again.....

And Andy--everyone is pulling for you to bring out a great CC tuba from your company at a great price. I hope it happens!

I am done with this thread.......have a great week everyone!

Regards-
mark

You have posted many threads about Chinese horns, Mark. Count them. And recently you have even realized that it looks like you are getting paid for this because you have specifically claimed not to be, not that anyone ever suspected that you were in the first place. But you have really been pushing these horns recently, reviewing them, pointing out ads on eBay and such. It is all about the Chinese horns with you lately. So I do not get your post above. Check you own post history and count them. Or maybe I will.

Bingo! Yeah you even seem to know what and when Laabs is going to have a delivery of specific horns. It seems very much like you have a vested interest which you never reveal

This place has become a giant advertisement for Jin Bao (or other makers from China) lately. This is another reason I am sick of this topic and am ranting. Can't the sponsors who are generating all these threads limit such traffic to the Sponsor Forum where it belongs? Tours of factories and of musicshows is fine if you are not selling these items. If you are they need to be in the Sponsor Forum as advertising. You are getting tons of free advertising in the main forum where it is not appropriate. Thanks!

Bingo! I am absolutely in agreement. You guys schilling Chinese horns are ruining Tubenet.

I have actually purchased a Chinese made instrument (Taiwan) for a family member (a flute) from of all people Joe S. What I like about Bloke is he tells you what he really thinks and isn't going to sell you junk. I'm pretty sure he would sell instruments from anywhere if they met his standards.

The one thing that seems to not get discussed yet in regards to stencils is that you take a hit on resale and this is true even with vintage stencils. Nobody is going to pay you for example the same for a Conn Helicon as a Pan American one even though they are virtually the same horn. The same for Schneider versus B&S. People buying low volume dealer stencils should know going in that if they sell down the road it is going to be tougher then selling say a Miraphone which is a name folks know and recognize. Nobody is going to know Bob Blows Low Tuba Sales.

[Lingon]

Let’s get a bit of real German humour:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKuU21P5EkQ

Thanks Klaus, we needed this now.

[Lingon]

Now, as you said we will see what happens with the next delivery, but what was the direct reaction from the makers when you discussed quality control?

They explained to me that they already have controls in place to check at every stage and send back to the worker concerned if anything defective. At JinBao the checker was in green shirt (against the assemble workers in blue) and was pointed out to me. On us commenting that this was apparently not picking up everything, they promised to review their procedures. They appreciate that they loose business when products are defective, so I'm hopeful they will work to improve. At least through my wife explaining in Chinese I am confident they understand the issues.

Good to hear and it is so essential that you are able to talk with them in their own language and their own cultural way. Much misunderstandings can be avoided then. There are so much happening without words too. Let us hope that they will come to a way, hopefully a system like Kaizen where all of the people at the factories are involved, not only a couple of controllers. That of course also includes all of you that sells the instruments, and from what I can see at least all of you that are active here on the tubenet are aware of that and proud of the instruments you sell.
Also an important thing is to have a good way to reach spare parts in a quick and easy way when needed. However I have not had any trouble with the techs here in Sweden to repair my horns irrespective if they were of asian, american or whatsoever origin, the instruments that is, not the repairmen. Except for that it normally takes forever to get parts from the US... One example is the catalog from Ferrees that took one year and tventyfour days to arrive. Quick'n easy?!
So let us hope that the competition from different regions of the world eventually will lead to improvements everywhere. Very curious to see what happens in the future.
Great work Jonathan.

[Wyvern]

Tours of factories and of musicshows is fine if you are not selling these items. If you are they need to be in the Sponsor Forum as advertising. You are getting tons of free advertising in the main forum where it is not appropriate. Thanks!

Hold on, I will take that as direct criticism of me for sharing my experiences. Firstly I posted such items long before I began selling tubas - just look through the archives with visits to Rudolf Meinl, Meinl-Weston, B&S, review of the Melton Travel tuba, etc. I do so because people are interested and I like to share - not to try to sell the products. It is insulting that you are making out I am posting as free advertising.

Sean can step in if he thinks otherwise, but I believe the Sponsors forum is to advertise products being sold. That is where I will announce new models I get in stock and such like. However to share experiences of visits, or post reports of general interest the main TubeNet is surely the place, otherwise many interested tubists will miss altogether. The fact that I am now a Sponsor is irrelevant. I make the subjects very clear in my headings, so if you are not interested don't read - others are very appreciative of the posts.

Lastly, as you well know it took ages to get Sponsorship access, so most of what you are criticising I could not have posted in the Sponsors Forum if I had wanted, because I did not then have access.