Origin of this instrument?

[Lingon]

I just saw this ad on a Swedish site and wonder which the maker could be? It was imported by the Swedish Company Eric Pettersson, presumably earlier than in the middle of the 70s, and marked Royal Tone. According to the description it is tuned to F with an extra tuning slide to Eb. Amati or?

[imperialbari]

Sadly then photo is taken in a useless angle, which gives no real idea about the wrap. Neither are the valve transmission nor the shape of the thumbring flange well visible. (I always think idiocy or fraudulence, when such useless illustration accompanies an ad).

However I doubt Amati, as the leadpipe would have gone straight into the first rotor.

If my interpretation of the thumbring flange is right, then this is renamed Weltklang from th B&S factory of GDR.

Klaus

[Lingon]

...Sadly then photo is taken in a useless angle...

Which unfortunately often is the case with those ads.

...However I doubt Amati, as the leadpipe would have gone straight into the first rotor...
...If my interpretation of the thumbring flange is right, then this is renamed Weltklang from th B&S factory of GDR...

I reread the ad and saw that the seller thought it was from the 50s or 60s if that could give any more clues?
How usual was it with that option to have the instruments tuned to F and Eb with an extra tuning slide? I mean everything old comes back, now with the 'Bubbie' with both tunings...

If I understand correctly then this instrument would be a B&S but marked Royal Tone then?

[imperialbari]

Weltklang was the lower priced 2nd line from the B&S factory. Very often the same acoustical designs and same parts for the tubing as the top line, yet with fewer valves and with less nickel silver trim. Assembled by the less experienced staff members.

B&S had another name until sometime around 1960. It was a state enforced conglomerate of previously privately owned workshops each carrying the family name of the founder or owner. Names were kept for marketing. The Bohemian/Saxonian tradition of instrument making is very old. Traits from B&S instruments like stays and flange shapes may be seen in pre-WWII instruments.

You could try getting better photos from the seller.

Klaus

[Lingon]

...It was a state enforced conglomerate of previously privately owned workshops each carrying the family name of the founder or owner...
...You could try getting better photos from the seller...

Aha, something like Amati in Czechoslovakia then? I will ask the seller for some better pics.

[imperialbari]

In Czechoslovakia Cerveny was the main brass maker probably much larger than any of the many private workshops owned by German speaking families in the Sudeten area of Bohemia.

The German occupation of Czechoslovakia was extremely rough, so the Czechs weren’t too kind on their German speaking fellow citizens after WWII. The Germans mostly were Catholics so they fled to Bavaria (Meinl, Glassl, Miraphone, and other Bavarian postwar brands came by that way).

In C-S the state also forced the private makers into the conglomerate of Amati. Cerveny is their main brand for better rotary brasses with model numbers like 6XX, 7XX, and 8XX. The exact same acoustical designs often are found under the Amati label with model numbers like 3XX and 4XX, only with fewer valves and less nickel silver trim.

Miraphone also used to run the same modular design policy with the lower model numbers being the less sophisticated ones in valves and trims. But then the same policy also has been seen with Besson/B&H in the UK and with King in the US.

Klaus

[Lingon]

...In Czechoslovakia Cerveny...

Thanks Klaus for the historical facts. It is remarkable how much of those historic procedures that is coming again, although a bit later and from other parts of the world. This same also applies to the thread about Clear Bore and the examples of different markings. Nowadays, do I have to say more than "German engineering"?

However, I got pictures of the instrument this thread is about and wonder if the origin may be clearer from that? It is pictured with the Eb tuning slide put on. It looks like this:

[imperialbari]

The thumbring flange and the carrying ring flange near the leadpipe have a shape only seen with instruments from the B&S conglomerate. The entry angle into the 1st valve points in the same direction, as does the top bow profile with its strong expansion in bore.

Klaus

[Lingon]

...instruments from the B&S conglomerate...

Thanks, and I also wonder about any observations about the playability and quality of those 'east' instruments from the 50s and 60s ? Overall god, bad or somewhere in between?

[imperialbari]

With disclaimers for wear and corrosion these instruments were considered good, if one liked the German playing style as contrasted to the piston styles from France, the UK, and the US. If the tubing is well preserved, it may be relevant to put on a better valve transmission. With older German/Czech trombones the slides mostly are for body-building exercises.

Klaus

[Lingon]

...With disclaimers for wear and corrosion these instruments were considered good...

Great, then it could be worth to check this one out.

...With older German/Czech trombones the slides mostly are for body-building exercises...

Hehe, I know... When I first got an old German trombone I started to look for the slide lock, but there was not any. However, we have one instrument tech from Czechoslovakia here in town and he fixed that old raw brass slide so it works almost as good as a modern one. The sound of those instruments can be very nice and work very well in the right context.