Do tubas pitch characteristics change over time

[sousaphone68]

In June I bought a new 3+1 Eb compensated tuba upon playing it with the factory mouthpiece I found it to be a tiny bit flat.
So I have been playing it daily since June with a clip on tuner and have found that it is now sharp unless I adjust the main slide by about a centimetre which is a good result as I would rather be in tune with the slide out a little as more than once I have had to play along with sharp pianos.

Bizarrely it does not feel strange or different to play and it has not affected my embouchure as none of other tubas have raised in pitch and use the same mouthpiece on 3 of them.

I have not washed or snaked the tuba since I got it all I did for the first month was clean and oil the valves each day.

There was a thread awhile ago where a similar question was posed not concerning pitch but sound quality on an instrument that had improved while in storage.

So any one else had a similar experience? to recap I think the Tuba has risen a semitone through regular playing.

I do not think I am lipping it up sub consciously as the tone is nice an even across the 3 octaves that I use the most in concert bands and has not changed since June.
I still play my other instruments regularly with the clip on and their pitch has not moved.

[Bob Kolada]

How you react to overall pitch on a horn can change but I've never seen any individual notes change except for damage or some such thing.

[cjk]

Must have been the PVAK freeing the weight of the piston from the rest of the instrument.

[sousaphone68]

Must have been the PVAK freeing the weight of the piston from the rest of the instrument.

Other than playing the tuba and oiling the values intensely during the first month I have not messed with it no PVAK no new felts or springs
Edit I added some silcon spring pads to quieten the valves but that was after the change in pitch
Still I am happy with the change in pitch

[dave]

I cleaned my compensating euph a few months ago, and there is one section of tubing from 3rd to 4th valve that is *really* difficult to get to, so it is probably similar on a compensating Eb tuba. I used a finger to push on the end of the snake from the bottom of the 4th valve while inserting the snake from the top, to get it to go around a right angle and into that bit of tubing. I found that using a trumpet snake was the trick to getting it to go around tight corners. It made a huge difference in the way the horn played...
Dave

[PMeuph]

We humans are very adaptable and slight changes are difficult to identify most of the time...

Agreed!

Good tuning on a horn is not solely depend and the horn, indeed I would say that it is the person behind the horn who has the most importance..

[iiipopes]

There once was a certain @1930 Conn 38K that had a ring of discoloration about 5/8 inch out on the main tuning slide. When the horn was played indoors, with the slide pulled, it was very visible, In the summer, as the horn would heat up, it had to be pulled even more. Then one day, the occasion arose to play it outdoors on a crisp October Saturday for a civic event. To tune up, the slide had to be pushed in exactly to that ring of discoloration. In other words: rock-solid intonation characteristics for 80+ years and going for a horn that had definitely done its yeoman's duty on the marching field.

[sousaphone68]

There once was a certain @1930 Conn 38K that had a ring of discoloration about 5/8 inch out on the main tuning slide. When the horn was played indoors, with the slide pulled, it was very visible, In the summer, as the horn would heat up, it had to be pulled even more. Then one day, the occasion arose to play it outdoors on a crisp October Saturday for a civic event. To tune up, the slide had to be pushed in exactly to that ring of discoloration. In other words: rock-solid intonation characteristics for 80+ years and going for a horn that had definitely done its yeoman's duty on the marching field.

The account above coincides with my own 20 year relationship with my original tuba it has stayed steady over the years we don't get range of temps and humidity that you get in the US.
The tuba that I bought in June was my first ever brand new tuba and I would now agree with earlier response that suggested that a cork or some other leak had resolved it self with the playing and oiling

[scottw]

Ah, a brand new tuba! It is a possibility that there was some loose solder, metal filings, general gunk in there from the factory which has worked itself out or moved to a more benign spot. Be happy, whatever the reason!

[Lingon]

...The tuba that I bought in June was my first ever brand new tuba and I would now agree with earlier response that suggested that a cork or some other leak had resolved it self with the playing and oiling...

Did you not pour sour milk in the horn before you first started playing it?!

...Many years ago, I worked with some old, old school brass players (as in I was 16 and they were 76+...) and these guys would tell stories of when a new horn was purchased that the owners would pour milk down through the leadpipe into valves to "get things going" (ie, "funk") and seal things up. Heard it several times and witnessed it once...

The thing is that it should be sour milk. That was practiced amongst many french horn players in Sweden many years ago. So it was for real. Those that prepared their horns that way did sound much better...

[Lingon]

To get a bit serious. I have not noticed so much pitch changing over time other than when I play more or less, then there may be some variation. However sometimes it seems that certain notes on a horn may change over time. But the big thing is that pitch and internal tuning, again only certain notes more seldom the whole horn, may have changed when another person have played my horn. And the phenomenon I asked in the other thread was about if a horn would 'wake up' when changing state from not played over a long period to played much, which I have noticed as horns getting back to life.

OTOH all this have happened with instruments that supposedly were not prepared with sour milk.

[Gilligan]

I believe the tuning change is from your embousure adapting to the new mouthpiece. My tuning changes with mouthpiece rims.

As for the sour milk idea... I read about that in an old Conn magazine when I was in middle school way too long ago. The magazine was from the early 1900's. I suspect this was a way to close up the gaps as the antique machining didn't have the accuracy of modern equipment. I doubt I would try it. One good inhale and you'll be sorry!!

[Lars Trawen]

Hello,
It's your embousure getting stronger after long time intensed playing, causing higher pitch.
I've myself the same experience. My main tuning slide had to be pulled out up to two cm more than normally after one week's daily 10 hours playing.
It's you and not your horn. Quite naturally and nothing to worry about.
Lars

[naplesbobT]

As quaint and "old school", as it might sound, there was a theory in use at
one time that to accelerate "patination", that you added milk to an instrument
and allowed it to sour.

Harold T. Brasch, my mentor, "Mr. Euphonium", former long time soloist with
the U.S. Navy Band, in D.C., one of the finest euphonium performers of any
age, and the person credited with introducing the large bore, upright bell, Besson euphonium to the U.S., mentions the following, in his book, "The Euphonium and 4 Valve Brasses, An Advanced Tutor", published and copyrighted
in 1971. pages 160/161, (Excerpted for brevity)

"Patination: Copper, bronze, or brass, is patinated when it is covered with a fine oxide or rust. This change in apearance is usually regarded by a layman
as a tarnish. However, in certain intances patination is highly desirable. Patination is beneficial to conical bore horns. The tone of a euphonium sounds
more mellow as the inside of the tubing becomes so coated. There have been
occasions when this patination has been hurried by an injection of a quart of
milk, allowing it to sour and then flushing clean. The action of a player's saliva
will patinate a new euphonium in about a years time, with good use. This coating will not be removed with washing or scrubbing, however it is removed
with a good brass polish, or an acid bath. (note, RBT, check with your repair
tech, as to the affect of their bath technique, on this). As a matter of long
experience, a new euphonium, or one that has been recently relacquered or replated, will not produce the fully sonorous tone that is expected, unitl it becomes patinated on the inside of all the tubing that makes up the instrument."

Arthur Lehman, and Karl Humble, also two of the finest euphonium players,
and former career members of the U.S. Marine Band, in Washington, D.C.
studied with Harold, and reviewed his text, for him, prior to it's publication.

It is my opinion that the study of a professional musician on a 4/5 valve
brass instrument, is not complete until they have studied Harold's text.

[Rick Denney]

Brasch: "The action of a player's saliva
will patinate a new euphonium in about a years time, with good use. This coating will not be removed with washing or scrubbing, however it is removed
with a good brass polish, or an acid bath.

Well, every preacher has his heresy. There is nothing in sour milk that is not removed by "washing and scrubbing". Saliva leaves calcium deposits that will cause dezincification if not cleaned using an acid bath. Either Mr. Brasch's instruments did not last long, or he had them chem-cleaned and just lived with the results, or (and this is where I'm putting my money) he changed more than the horn did over that first year.

Musicians are finely tuned to subtleties, and notice things others don't. The better the musician, the more subtle those observations. But being attuned to something does not infer a proper understanding of its cause.

Rick "agreeing with the 'with good use' part of the above statement" Denney

[sousaphone68]

The tubas or my pitch has stabilised despite being on a mouthpiece search for the last month. The factory mouthpiece that came with my travel tuba a bad 24AW clone has added a couple more pedal tones to my range but I don't like the narrow rim. I am trying a Denis Wicke 1L and just got a Yamaha 66d4 that is working well with my Sousa and tubas. Just need to find a cheap 5l for the travel tuba.

I have come around to the theory that I have changed rather than the tuba but have enjoyed the experience of breaking in a new instrument and the responses to the thread.

[naplesbobT]

In reply to sousaphone68

my recent experience with mpcs is almost the opposite of yours, I have been
using a VB 24AW. I found the rim a little to wide, as it rested to close to the
bottom of my nose. I purchased a Schilke 66, (funnel). The rim was just right, but I noticed an unfavorable difference in tone color. There has been previous
discussions on this site about the bowl type (24AW) providing additional color
via mixing. I tend to agree with this now. Also, I seem to note an increase in upper range, but low and pedal notes seem a little more difficult with the S66.

[Lingon]

...It's your embousure getting stronger after long time intensed playing, causing higher pitch...

Hmm, interesting. I have experienced the opposite, ie. when playing very much, over a longer period, the tendencies seems to be that the pitch goes down and I have to push in the tuning slide because, I thought, the emboushure became more relaxed?!

[Rick Denney]

...It's your embousure getting stronger after long time intensed playing, causing higher pitch...

Hmm, interesting. I have experienced the opposite, ie. when playing very much, over a longer period, the tendencies seems to be that the pitch goes down and I have to push in the tuning slide because, I thought, the emboushure became more relaxed?!

It a depends on what your initial problem is.

Rick "who tends less flat when well-practiced" Denney

[sousaphone68]

Hello the 24aw clone that came with the travel is a very poor clone the bowl and throat are approx correct but the rim is no where close it came with the travel tuba I used it with an open mind but it is not suitable for the travel tuba I tried it in my other tubas and was surprised that a bigger mouthpiece gave me a bigger range but the rim was not to my liking I have sourced a Denis Wick 1L for my full size Eb and want to try a 5L in the travel tuba as the French horn player in a concert band I play with stuck his horn mouthpiece into my mp and achieved a very pleasing sound, he plays Wagnerian Tuba alot and liked the sound of the travel tuba with the f slide in.
The 66D4 I got on eBay for £12stg which was too good to pass up and it plays well in my sousaphone.
I learned to play on a BH Imperial with a Denis Wick 5 so am looking forward to trying the mouthpiece again I am hoping it will help me tame the Eb slide as F fingerings are taking longer than I thought to take root. I do not like the tone I am getting on the travel tuba particularly from Bb on the stave down to f just below they don't sound as good as the rest.