pbone, plastic sax, when tuba?

[Lingon]

The pbone is now old news. We know that it exists, at least for the few that have been able to get one, and that it works surprisingly well. 'Today I stumbled over a youtube clip with another product I have never seen before, but that may be well known to you all, a plastic sax, body, mechanics and pads, almost everything in plastic. You can watch and hear it here. And one clip from the repairmans perspective.
Now, I know it has been discussed before, but when will there be a whole featherweight plastic tuba, including the valves?
We can send people to the moon, but build a plastic tuba?!

[tuba.bobby]

If a plastic sax, why not a plastic ophicleide?!

[Lingon]

If a plastic sax, why not a plastic ophicleide?!

Now we are coming somewhere That would be excellent!

[Lingon]

...Don't rush me I'm working on it !...

Great, looking forward to hear more.

...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TboVRCDHNXE." target="_blank. target="_blank.

That's a really good start. Then when the valves and the rest of the tubing is plastic the horn will be very light and easy. Isn't there some horns with carbon fibre, or somthing, rotors already?

[Donn]

Maybe the lighter weight of plastic rotors would work with a simpler, more direct mechanism, instead of the conventional paddle linkage. I imagine the valve set would be a little shorter, just because you could make it out of one big block of plastic and put each rotor in a hole in the block with practically no space in between. then maybe orient the valves so you can operate the rotor arm directly.

Or, with plastic maybe some other sort of valve would make more sense. A tunable slide made of plastic might be harder than the valve.

To be fair, I believe the plastic trombone actually has metal linings in the slides.

[tuba.bobby]

To be fair, I believe the plastic trombone actually has metal linings in the slides.

I think they are, you can certainly see it at the end of the stockings when you remove the outer slide

[Lingon]

...To be fair, I believe the plastic trombone actually has metal linings in the slides...

Yes, the stockings are made of brass.

[Lingon]

...Yes, the Canadian Brass tuba player used a carbon fiber bell on one his tubas and one of those German manufacturers makes carbon fiber rotors...

So then what's left? The valve casings, can they be made of some sort of plastic or should they, like the stockings on the trombone slide, be made of brass? All the tubes, including tuning slides, lead pipe and so on, would it be possible to make them out of plastic too?
What would the ensemble type be called, not brass quintet but plastic quintet?!

[imperialbari]

Why not think a bit inventive on basis of well known technologies?

The sausage bassoon told us how to wind a long sequence of conical tubing so it takes up very little space.

Inflatable sports’ halls told us how to make structures with a minimum of material (as measured in weight).

Take a sewing machine and its driver. In TN contexts the code words are Armadillo-Texas.

Take some dense non-penetrable fabric. In TN contexts the code words are too many to name.

Take an engineer specializing in covering up complex routings. In TN contexts the code words are Residual Genius.

Combine these elements.

Hints:

The fabric shall be in two layers. The space between the layers shall be inflated to get structural stability. The pressure shall be maintained by means of bellows placed under the arm of the player and activated like some types of bagpipes. With marching tubists the bellows may be mounted under the soles of the player’s shoes. The necessary plastic tubing will not be very noticeable even with female players in skimpy skirts. Just choose the right colour and the tubing will look like varices.

No need for heavy valve systems. Changes of routing are achieved by hinged throttles where only the upstream ones ned to be activated. The downstream ones will be blown into their right position by the player’s intensely wide, warm, and well supported air supply. Fabric should be selected so it can take the heat.

The current citizen Kane should not be involved in the process. He is leaning too much towards transparency. This project should be all stitched up.

K

[Lingon]

It is disqualified. Too much metal, and also in sousa form.

[bisontuba]

OK, how 'bout a plastic travel tuba
Mark

[bort]

Is the pbone made in China?

[imperialbari]

Is the pbone made in China?

I don't remember seeing that said explicitly, but the English distributor always spoke of shipments coming in on fixed dates weeks or months out in the future, so I guess there is some long range shipping involved. The Englishmen were hard to get in contact with. One of my German suppliers says mine will arrive at their store this Wednesday.

And yes, my guess also is China as the country of origin.

Klaus

[tuba.bobby]

Is the pbone made in China?

I believe they are

[Lingon]

...Onto the main topic of plastic horns...

Great, thanks.

...I think we'll have to wait another couple years before we get something nice. The complexity associated with building vlalves wwill take a while in R&D...

I am aware of that but otoh we may be a bit on the way with the carbon fiber rotors which seems to to work, at least some times. The stainless steel pistons seems another way to go which of course not is that lightweight. However, if a rotor in carbon fiber can work, is then the problem to have a casing for it that would not be worn or is it maybe enough to have the bearings in metal and the rest of the casing in some sort of plastic? Like the stockings of the pbone's handslide.

...So, it took three hundred years to "create" the concept of valves. It is only natural that it would take a while to longer to develop them on plastic instruments...

Of course it is, but as everything mover faster and faster, if there is enough interest the development may be slightly quicker. Just compare with for example microchips and their capacity doubling which was a bit slow to start with but for each generation developed faster and faster. And as said, we can send people to the moon so I believe technology will not be the factor that holds it back. Looking forward to the future with hopefully some exciting stuff to come, if only the environment will survive...

[PMeuph]

Of course it is, but as everything mover faster and faster, if there is enough interest the development may be slightly quicker. Just compare with for example microchips and their capacity doubling which was a bit slow to start with but for each generation developed faster and faster. And as said, we can send people to the moon so I believe technology will not be the factor that holds it back. Looking forward to the future with hopefully some exciting stuff to come, if only the environment will survive...

I think it all boils down to supply and demand. The technology to build complete plastic tubas has surely been around for 40-50 years. However the cost of doing so has been outside the the regular price of coonsumers. Since there hasn't been much of a demand ( why would there be, there are plenty of great brass instruments) there are no companies currently working on them.

The advantage of the pBone is that it is priced reasonably well enough to be used as a curiosity or has a pure play toy. I will surely buy one sometime soon-ish and the purpose will most likely be comical. ( Playing a comedic number in a jazz set, getting a laugh out from it at a rehearsal, playing in a river/lake/pool, and outdoor gigs in Canada ) I do not see these plastic instruments as anything more than "Fancy toys" and I figure that many other people agree with that.

Just some food for thought... Excellent Carbon-fiber Cellos, Violas and Violins are endorsed by some of the worlds top players.
http://www.luisandclark.com/category/players/
Even though their cost is significantly less than professional instruments. ( a Cello is around 7000$ while a cello used by a pro in a major symphony could be at least 70,000$) They still do not have enough of a reputation to lead to a major change from wood-based instruments. The same holds true for brass.

This was my round-about way of saying that even though the technology is there to build the instruments, it will take time for the market to learn and accept the change.

One more thing, I still don't think that the pBone is "old news." It has been around for over a year but not more than that. We all know about here on this board and the same goes for other boards (trombone or brass related) but it certainly isn't well known with every trombone player out there.

[Lingon]

...In 1954 the thinking was that fiberglass was almost indestructible. This is a fantasy. Kids can destroy anything !...

True.

...Most thermal formed instruments could be repaired with a ..............."tuba glue" ...

Well, I just asked one of the techs here if he had stocked up with pbone glue and plastic details for repairing the new instruments when they arrives...

...FWIW; I used to have a white styrene tuba that weighed thirteen pounds. Without the valves it weighs around 3-3/12 lbs...

That's it, if the valves could also be made very light. Certainly in the right direction.

...Of course, building plastic tubas exposes factory workers to all sorts of toxic fumes, but that's OK, because we can buy them from the Communist Chinese...

That is of course not OK. But if the methods to make the plastic is refined in a way that is friendly to both the environment and the people working with it, then it would be OK to buy them from whichever country including the the ones you stated I suppose.

(New entry)
I did start a new thread in the Off Topic forum for those interested in discussing the off topics that for example this thread, and others, is not about. It seems that it was not politically correct to do that so unfortunately there is no chance to discuss that side of this thread's Off Topics.

(original text)
I have started a new thread in the Off Topic forum for those interested in discussing the off topics that for example this thread, and others, is not about. If this works it should be here.

[Lingon]

Is the pbone made in China?

Yes it seems so. Check this message over at the tromboneforum.

[Lingon]

...I think it all boils down to supply and demand...
...Since there hasn't been much of a demand ( why would there be, there are plenty of great brass instruments) there are no companies currently working on them....
...One more thing, I still don't think that the pBone is "old news."...

You are certainley correct. Maybe it is just me that want everything too quick.

...The advantage of the pBone is that it is priced reasonably well enough to be used as a curiosity or has a pure play toy. I will surely buy one sometime soon-ish and the purpose will most likely be comical. ( Playing a comedic number in a jazz set, getting a laugh out from it at a rehearsal, playing in a river/lake/pool, and outdoor gigs in Canada ) I do not see these plastic instruments as anything more than "Fancy toys" and I figure that many other people agree with that...

Well, the the use as a play toy is one perspective. I can however see more uses for it, if the quality proves to be good enough. The sound and playability as demonstrated by for example Jiggs Whigham and others seems to be at a level which is so good that it can be used in many situations. Outdoor gigs where you will not bring the Shires is one thing, kids that start out is another. Longer periods of practicing when the brass instrument's weight cause strain in your arm and wrist etc. If there will ever be a larger bore pbone it will be even more useful. I have contacted them about a F bass pbone, which unfortunately was not scheduled for the moment.

...Just some food for thought... Excellent Carbon-fiber Cellos, Violas and Violins are endorsed by some of the worlds top players.
http://www.luisandclark.com/category/players/
Even though their cost is significantly less than professional instruments. ( a Cello is around 7000$ while a cello used by a pro in a major symphony could be at least 70,000$) They still do not have enough of a reputation to lead to a major change from wood-based instruments. The same holds true for brass...

Thanks for that link. Excellent information and very interesting to see those top musicians that uses these unconventional instruments. I have also heard that some of string musicians in our orchestra discussed carbon fiber bows and some of them did like it. I find the following from their site a bit thoughtful:
----------- snip --------- snip ------------ snip --------
...Carbon fiber reinforced composites are very strong for their weight. They’re often stronger than steel, but much lighter. Because of this, they can be used to replace metals in many uses, from parts for airplanes and the space shuttle to tennis rackets, golf clubs, skis and fishing poles and stringed instruments...
----------- snip --------- snip ------------ snip --------
which seems to indicate that our beloved brass instruments are not so good candidates?! Space shuttle and violins, but not tubas, at least yet. Let's hope for the future.

[tubajazzo]

There is already a carbon fiber model of the serpent, one of the predecessors of the tuba
http://www.serpentmakers.ch/n2n/page.ph ... d=20&lid=2" target="_blank

But it is made in Switzerland, not in China.