Where's the best place to cut this Eb?

[tokuno]

I picked up a nifty little HN White 1940s Eb 4-valve sousaphone this weekend. Great sound, and very nimble.

It plays in tune with itself reasonably well, but very low; seems pitched to A=435. Someone in a different thread indicated that the Bach/Kelly 18 worked ok on these horns, so that's what I tried (along with a myriad of other pieces, but it stays about the same flatness).

If I play no-bits, it's much closer to 440 (but no-bits throws the weight back and the neck's not sized to accept a mouthpiece).

It's hard to imagine taking 3 or 4 inches out of the tuning slide, as it's not only short, but it'll be nigh inaccessible under the first valve slide.

Anyone have any experience shortening one of these to raise the pitch? What's a good way to do it?

IMG_6764.JPG

[imperialbari]

It is early and I am grumpy anyway. But why do people asking questions not provide the full information available to them? Collecting all necessary information and organizing it very often will make a positive or negative answer pop-up in the mind of the person asking. When I studied engineering our physics teacher told his office was open to people asking questions, but only if the questions were precisely worded. Very few had to come to ask.

The photo implicitly suggests that a solution might be to cut the valve stems.

The main problem with these small King Eb sousaphones is, that they like virtually all BBb sousaphones, are of the full circle wrap. There is no fake tubing in the shoulder support area. That implies a very short main tuning slide and the main bugle goes right from the valve block into the secondary (inner) main circle. No extra loop under the valve slides like with the Conn Eb sousaphones.

No cutting options between valve block and bell. Very short main tuning slide already. Hardly any pull if shortened. The tubing between the neck receiver and tuning slide very likely a critical part of of the conical bore progression of a combined leadpipe set-up.

This leaves the bits as the most likely parts to cut/omit. If that skews the whole carrying balance, there only are two options back for a correction. Both possibly necessary for a combined solution.

The curve of the lower leadpipe has to be changed, so that the neck receiver comes closer to the player.

And/or:

A custom leadpipe/reshaping-of-the-original so that the route becomes more direct from the neck receiver to the ideal mouthpiece position.

Projects like this have been done in at least one case, a cutting of a BBb sousaphone to a CC helicon.

Which leads to another option for pitch correction already tried in a case like this one: Find an adequate King tuba bell and convert this instrument to a helicon.

Klaus

[Ken Herrick]

Are you SURE the valves are air tight, that there are no other leaks, and that your mouthpiece fits well and is not too big? Fixing any problems along those lines should come before considering any cutting. Just a thought.

[imperialbari]

Are you SURE the valves are air tight, that there are no other leaks, and that your mouthpiece fits well and is not too big? Fixing any problems along those lines should come before considering any cutting. Just a thought.

Very true!

Valve tightness as a factor may be tested by means of a thicker oil.

The general tendencies in mouthpieces since this sousaphone was designed maybe 80 years ago points towards wider and deeper cups. The pitch of this instrument may not be well served by a deep AND wide cup.

Klaus

[armytuba]

Congrats on your acquisition! Judging by the photo that was posted, this looks like a sousaphone I used to have in my collection which was formerly owned by Lee Stofer. I remember it being a "rib sticker" with that protruding leadpipe-to-first valve slide, but that's common amongst most if not all the King sousies, right?

[cjk]

The tuba is old. Assume the valves leak unless they've been rebuilt. You should be able to tell.

If the valves haven't been rebuilt, fix that first, then re-evaluate the pitch level.

Don't forget temperature. If you're testing the instrument in a ~60 degree F garage, then it will play A=435. Room temperature should be around 72 degrees when A=440.

[Matt Walters]

A previous poster mentioned the fact that leaky valves will make the horn play flat. Coat the valves with a thin layer of Vaseline and see if the pitch goes up. If so, do the valve job first. Of course you will now have to clean out the valves and casings. But piston oil, "finger grease", and good paper towels will take care of that.

Looking at the picture in Klaus's post, I change my opinion. It looks like the only tubing left to cut is in the main tuning slide. Sorry for the "senior moment" that suggested cutting after the 4th piston. Sorry if I wasted anyone's time but mine. I had some other horn in mind.

[imperialbari]

How many varying wraps were there ever for the King 4P Eb sousaphones? There may be several, but I only know of one:

Body.jpg

How to cut the branch coming out of the 4th valve without diminishing the space for the player even more?

Klaus

[Donn]

A previous poster mentioned the fact that leaky valves will make the horn play flat.

... and also mentioned leaks elsewhere. Might be worth the trouble to fill that thing up with water and look for drips. Note that it will get real heavy.

[Bob Kolada]

However, a 69C4 will also probably stick out further and possibly negate that aspect. What kind of receiver does it have? My upright medium King a (pretty cool, actually) receiver that is right between American and small- both a Bach 18 and a contrabone mp fit acceptably but a Schilke sticks way the hell out.

The Wicks have never really interested me either; try looking around for a tweener mp or nab a 31mm JK contrabone mp. I have a few 30mm ones and they work fine in a small bass tuba for a lighter sound. I don't know is the 1A is out of a larger blank though.