The Old "What Mouthpiece Should I Get?" Question

[Dutchtown Sousa]

Long read, sorry guys.
Okay, I will describe the situation then ask for recommendations. So I use a Helleberg mouthpiece for both concert and marching band. I have not really used any other mouthpiece but I love the Helleberg for concert playing but it seems lacking in some departments when paired with a sousaphone. Now this could totally be the sousaphone's fault (our band has had these Yamaha sousas for 5-6 seasons, and they have never once been cleaned (utterly disgusting) and most of them have some sort of fault whether it is a neck that is dented allowing air to leak, bits that have broken because the solder failed but we still have to use them, a neck that the neck and the pipe from the neck into the sousaphone is broken off and stuck in the sousaphone causing air to leak, rubbing/worn valves (due to lack of valve oil because ban directors don't like to give us any), varying air resistance between different sousaphones, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc). Main thing is the tone usually stinks and my air occasionally slips out the side of the mouthpiece (lip problem?) and higher notes are harder to hit and lower notes can't be played that loud (I can play those pedals, but not loud, nor really much below the what I would guess would be called the "normal" F (yeah that one that is right below the bottom line on the staff). On a concert tuba it sounds fine for what it is supposed be doing (playing with superb tone, or occasionally just ripping it in the softest section of a song). So this is where I ask what mouthpiece I should get (or try then send back within a 10-14 day trial period). So what should I get? I hear praises for LOUD Mouthpieces (and planned to buy one before they shut down in the spring, hopefully they will be back up and selling when the site says they will) but one of my college friends (one of the loudest players I know, he was a senior in the marching band last year) said Mega Tone or Parduba would be something to try (he is using a "Vincent Bach Basic" right now). So recommend me some models to try, and I don't care what brand if you use it and like it. I know they say the best mouthpiece for a person depends on their lips and what they are using it for, so I'll put it this way: I have a large bottom lip (some people make racially based jokes about it though I am of European descent) and a thinner top lip (probably about average)I don't know if this info helps but you might have the same type of lips as me. What do I want to use this mouthpiece for: playing loud on low notes ( I heard the LM-12 is good for that) and easier on the chops for high notes (with good tone). If at all possible, I would like to still be able to have a responsive mouthpiece for runs. If a compromise must be made I might have to buy two mouthpieces and change them out to deal with what I want to play but I'll figure out how to do that at another time. Just suggest me something that does atleast one of the things listed, if it does both, props to you for a great suggestion.

[tubagod94]

Hello!
I have a Giddings and Webster Bayamo. It is kinda pricey, but it is a great mouthpiece!

Nick Phillips.

[tubahero300]

i agree, the bayamo is a great piece, thats what i recommend as well

[Rick Denney]

First, buy your own valve oil and quit abusing what the taxpayers have given you. (Sorry, I'm old and I just reviewed how much tax I have paid this year. It was not pretty.)

The Helleberg you have now is a prefectly good mouthpiece. If you can play it comfortably on your concert tuba, you will probably not notice much improvement with any other mouthpiece on your sousaphone. It may feel different for a little while, but pretty soon you'll be back to sounding like you.

There are two classic mouthpiece designs--the Helleberg and the Geib. The Helleberg is a funnel, and provides a round tone with more darkness and less color. The classic example of a Geib-style mouthpiece is the Bach 18. It is quite cup-shaped, and provides a more colorful sound, but with the risk of getting edgy.

If you want to try a large Geib-shape mouthpiece beyond the Bach 18, consider a Sellmansberger Symphony. It is also stainless steel and thus will be a bit more durable than a brass mouthpiece.

BUT--no mouthpiece will make up for any problems you have with fundamentals. There are players who spend their lives chasing mouthpieces. When it's toy money for an adult buying those mouthpieces, then there's no harm. But I would recommend that you do not get on the mouthpiece train. The Helleberg you have now is quite capable of playing very loudly--if you can.

Finally, this seems to be the rant of the week, but DO NOT try to play loudly for the sake of being loud. Focus on good tone--tone that has a lot of core and projection. You used the word "superb" to describe your tone. If your tone is really superb, then playing as loudly as could possibly be musically valuable should already be in your skill set.

Playing tuba is not a sport. Music is an art, not a contest. Fix the leaks on your sousaphones, and play music.

Rick "pushing to be louder doesn't make more sound, it just makes more ugly" Denney

[bearphonium]

I, too, play a decent concert tuba (which I own) and a not-so-decent (boardering on crappy) sousaphone which I borrow, hence, use for free, and CANNOT make any mods to (like getting the stuck slides repaired, or fixing some of the fiberglass) as part of my "borrower's agreement. I don't have "supurb" tone, but I work on it. I did, however, clean it at the first opportunity (it is, after all, owned by a middle school which no longer marches. I had no idea that I'd find candy wrappers in the valves, but I digress). I bought my own valve oil, and am frequently mocked as I carry it all the time so that I have it when I need it. I use a Kelly 18 (lexan knockoff of a Bach 18) in the sousy because I drop the mouthpiece so often due to issues with the bits and because it is cheap and does not fry/freeze my face in temperture extremes. Kelly also makes a Hellberg knock off called the Kellyburg.

I'm gonna jump on the RG's bandwagon here: You've got a pretty good deal going with the school providing you some decent horns. Take some "ownership" of those horns, clean them, do what you can to repair them, treat them well, and change the culture of your sousaphone section to one that cares about "their" horns. Read up some on easy repairs that can be made, ask about some of the harder ones, especially if you've got a college that teaches an instrument repair class in your neck of the woods. If you show some ownership of the school horns, they may well think about replacing them sooner, as opposed to seeing the disrepair that your section has done in a relatively short period of time and deciding not to replace them since it is pretty clear that new stuff is not cared for in any way.

Yep, bit of an old fart rant here.

[imperialbari]

If your sousaphones have basic problems like leaks and sticking valves, you can search and try the entire market for tuba mouthpieces without finding a satisfactory solution.

When those problems are solved considerations about mouthpiece efficiency may start.

For seated playing, where I just consider sousaphones differently wrapped tubas, use the same mouthpiece you would use for a similarly sized tuba.

I have heard beautiful playing from players using the Conn Helleberg. I have used one myself, also the largest variant from Paul Sidey. However I have come to like bowl shaped mouthpieces more, because they move the formants down in pitch for a more bassy, not boomy, punch or edge.

I use the largest blokepiece for my Conn 40K. Only reservation is about this piece is its demanding the player being in very good shape. For marching I would go with one of the shallower variants. Rather the #2 cup and backbore than the #1 (which I both own and use for my F and Eb basses). Maybe the Imperial variant would be the best one as I understand it being between the #2 and the largest variant. Only I don’t own the Imperial variant, so I can’t say. I had expected to prefer the #2 on my 28K in Eb, but so far the one I like the best there is the #1.

Klaus

[Donn]

Not much additional commentary needed ... but the mouthpiece you mentioned specifically, LM 12 - I believe you should steer clear of that one. Not that it's a bad mouthpiece, just very different (extremely shallow), and if the rest of the section is playing something more conventional, you're likely to stick out in an unfavorable way.

I believe you're right about facial structure, size of lips etc., but we're not very skilled at that here. Rumor has it Doug Elliott is, though - I don't know if he still does this, but I think he used to spend some time setting players up with a physically suitable mouthpiece, using his own line of interchangeable mouthpiece parts.

[Dutchtown Sousa]

So yea I think you guys may be right, the instrument must be working before I get a different mouthpiece (I can't do too much about that except feeding it gallons of oil). But my loudness issue may just be all in my head, as in a county wide marching exhibition we had last night (I also wonder who picked the date) went very well (well at least to me) because 2 of the 3 judges tapes (2 of 2 of music related judges) we listened to today in class, the judge said the tubas needed to back down a ton (The 5 of us produced more sound than every one else in the band (our band is about 70 people) combined). We definitely were the most powerful sousa section in the county (other bands had 5 sousas but they were barely audible even on the loudest sections). Now something not even related to the topic I just wanted to bring up, the richest school in the county (it is a public school but they get the most funding, a complex racial issue I don't want to discuss in detail) was using PRERECORDED sound effects and music IN their show.

But back to tubas. So my issues still are (with playing)
1. Playing high notes in tune/easily hitting them (might be an issue with my instrument or mouthpiece or lungs)
2. Playing low notes loud (might be an issue with my instrument or mouthpiece or lungs)
3. Playing medium or low range notes for extended amounts of time at F or FF (Lung issue, and the fact many composers don't understand the amount of air required to play a double or triple whole note at a completely sustained FF with a tuba/sousaphone)

So I'm sure air could fix most of this so any suggestions on good exercises to increase lung capacity?
That is not to say I will end my hunt for a better mouthpiece but I will try whatever you guys think is necessary to become a better player at games and exhibitions. I'm still a relatively young player so bear with me here

[tubeast]

Hello,

sounds like you guys don´t really need to worry about decibels and can concentrate on more interesting stuff. Good thing !!

Some remarks towards your issues in order of my personal "ranking of importance":
3) I´m positive most composers DO have in mind what it takes to play the parts they write. Playing tuba in wind band, it takes teamwork.
Use whatever air You need for the appropriate volume. If you run out of air before the note has ended, don´t worry about it. Team up with your section mates and make sure each one gets to breathe at different places, so there won´t be gaps in tone out front. Make sure you breathe well BEFORE you run out of air.

2) First adress leaks, dirt, and more or less intelligent beings that may reside in in your horn. Take it home, connect a garden hose to the leadpipe and turn on the water. You may want to apply some mild detergent. When the tuba is filled, turn down the water flow and stuff a balloon or something into the bell. (Make sure You can pull it out any time). Take a close look at the horn and mark any spots where water is coming out. There should be some leakage from the valves, but not from anywhere else. When the horn is dry again, adress these leaks with tape for the time being and see if tone improves.

1) High notes may improve already after actions in number 2 have been taken, the same with intonation. From then on, it´s just up to YOU. Air flow, face muscles and, above all, your musicality is what it takes. A good instructor will help, too.

Good luck.
Hans

[Rick Denney]

So my issues still are (with playing)
1. Playing high notes in tune/easily hitting them (might be an issue with my instrument or mouthpiece or lungs)
2. Playing low notes loud (might be an issue with my instrument or mouthpiece or lungs)
3. Playing medium or low range notes for extended amounts of time at F or FF (Lung issue, and the fact many composers don't understand the amount of air required to play a double or triple whole note at a completely sustained FF with a tuba/sousaphone)

You just described the issues faced by every tuba player in history. Welcome to the club.

Rick "who started playing tuba in 1970 and still has these issues" Denney

[Dutchtown Sousa]

So my issues still are (with playing)
1. Playing high notes in tune/easily hitting them (might be an issue with my instrument or mouthpiece or lungs)
2. Playing low notes loud (might be an issue with my instrument or mouthpiece or lungs)
3. Playing medium or low range notes for extended amounts of time at F or FF (Lung issue, and the fact many composers don't understand the amount of air required to play a double or triple whole note at a completely sustained FF with a tuba/sousaphone)

You just described the issues faced by every tuba player in history. Welcome to the club.

Rick "who started playing tuba in 1970 and still has these issues" Denney

Well I figured that was the case, just some people might have some ideas to better themselves in those areas, and might want to share them. I hope no one objects to me wanting to be able to rip the pedal tones (for musical effect of course, not just to make people feel bad of course). Now I know I have to have chops to hit high notes so that might be something to work on more.

Hello,

sounds like you guys don´t really need to worry about decibels and can concentrate on more interesting stuff. Good thing !!

Some remarks towards your issues in order of my personal "ranking of importance":
3) I´m positive most composers DO have in mind what it takes to play the parts they write. Playing tuba in wind band, it takes teamwork.
Use whatever air You need for the appropriate volume. If you run out of air before the note has ended, don´t worry about it. Team up with your section mates and make sure each one gets to breathe at different places, so there won´t be gaps in tone out front. Make sure you breathe well BEFORE you run out of air.

2) First adress leaks, dirt, and more or less intelligent beings that may reside in in your horn. Take it home, connect a garden hose to the leadpipe and turn on the water. You may want to apply some mild detergent. When the tuba is filled, turn down the water flow and stuff a balloon or something into the bell. (Make sure You can pull it out any time). Take a close look at the horn and mark any spots where water is coming out. There should be some leakage from the valves, but not from anywhere else. When the horn is dry again, adress these leaks with tape for the time being and see if tone improves.

1) High notes may improve already after actions in number 2 have been taken, the same with intonation. From then on, it´s just up to YOU. Air flow, face muscles and, above all, your musicality is what it takes. A good instructor will help, too.

Good luck.
Hans

Hmm #3 is something I have asked my section leader about helping us do and he said he will get us going on that tomorrow
#2 is something I will definitely be doing soon, probably sometime next week (if I can't do it Friday). Thanks for the idea.
#1 well if #2 helps, I will definitely begin working on controlling air up there but I'm not sure if my instructor will help, in the past my instructors got very mad when I would play the music an octave or two up, even if it was a warm-up (which I have read from Øystein Baadsvik that you should warm-up playing a difficult piece on your mouth piece, not immediately start with long medium range notes, something about its warms up your lips and abdominal muscles better). So do you think high to low jumps could be a good way to work out those lip muscles?

And while I am here (and have mentioned Øystein Baadsvik), any suggestions developing multiphonics skills? I love multiphonics but changing vowel sounds is sorta difficult. Sorry that I do have another question but I am full of questions about playing the tuba as I may choose it as my career (or part of my career).

[Dutchtown Sousa]

Not much additional commentary needed ... but the mouthpiece you mentioned specifically, LM 12 - I believe you should steer clear of that one. Not that it's a bad mouthpiece, just very different (extremely shallow), and if the rest of the section is playing something more conventional, you're likely to stick out in an unfavorable way.

Do you think if I got my whole section to buy one (Maybe a fundraiser? We really are not that big of a section, like 5 players right now but probably 8 next year) of them that it would sound fine? I know VSU Horsepower (my favorite section) uses them and they can rip the lows and sound good on the highs and obviously play loud and if you have seen their video where they played at a wedding reception, if the LM-12 was used there, it's also pretty good for soft playing. Now I know the shallow mouthpiece may take some getting used to but I think I might want to try different types to see what works and what doesn't work. If I can't get my sousaphone sounding better maybe I shall use one of the concert tubas to try them out (we have Miraphones for concert tubas, the quality difference between the Miraphone concert tubas and the Yamaha sousaphones is astounding) to see if the mouthpiece actually has much affect on how an instrument can be played (I believe it does).

[USStuba04]

I would stay clear of expensive mouthpieces all together until you own your own tuba and are really ready to match things up.

The standard mouthpieces out there work. Just find the one that works best for you.

I send you a PM.

[Donn]

The standard mouthpieces out there work. Just find the one that works best for you.

Exactly. My concern is that by trying to find solutions in the realm of exotic mouthpieces, you may waste your time in school (supposing that it has any value.) This is the time to learn what everyone else learns, how to make good use of a normal mouthpiece.

[Dutchtown Sousa]

This is the time to learn what everyone else learns, how to make good use of a normal mouthpiece.

I see your point but the main reason I asked this was some of my college friends that play tubas told me to try different mouthpieces because they "were much easier to play with". I am starting to believe there really may be nothing wrong with my mouthpiece, just my instrument like others have suggested. I think I will go with USStuba04's suggestion to try basic, inexpensive mouthpieces just to see if I can tell the difference. I think I will start off with a Bach and whatever there is at the music store.Guys thanks for all the help so far, I really do appreciate any input into this matter.
One last thing: Would dented neck/bits cause uneven tone, esp on louder notes?

[toobagrowl]

I think I will go with USStuba04's suggestion to try basic, inexpensive mouthpieces just to see if I can tell the difference. I think I will start off with a Bach and whatever there is at the music store.Guys thanks for all the help so far, I really do appreciate any input into this matter.
One last thing: Would dented neck/bits cause uneven tone, esp on louder notes?

That's good advice. I primarily use my 'basic' Kelly 18 and Faxx 18 mpcs because they work very well for me. They are good "all-around" mouthpieces.
I still have my old "boutique" mouthpieces (Deck 3, Monette 94, etc) that I don't use anymore and are just sitting there on the floor...

As far as dented necks/bits..........if the dents are minor, it won't really affect anything. But if the dents go in more than 1/3 of the tubing they start to affect sound and response.
I bought a very basic back-up tuba a while back which had major dents in several areas. The first valve slide was crushed in more than 60% on the crook which DEFINITELY affected the response and sound. Made all first valve notes play AND sound stuffy, and limited volume as well. So I had a brand new first valve slide ordered and it dramatically improved everything - sound & response - to where it was like the other valved notes. In other words, the response and sound were consistent with the new slide.

So, I'd only worry about the neck and bits if the dents are pretty major. If they are, your band director needs to get them repaired.

[Dutchtown Sousa]

As far as dented necks/bits..........if the dents are minor, it won't really affect anything. But if the dents go in more than 1/3 of the tubing they start to affect sound and response.
I bought a very basic back-up tuba a while back which had major dents in several areas. The first valve slide was crushed in more than 60% on the crook which DEFINITELY affected the response and sound. Made all first valve notes play AND sound stuffy, and limited volume as well. So I had a brand new first valve slide ordered and it dramatically improved everything - sound & response - to where it was like the other valved notes. In other words, the response and sound were consistent with the new slide.

So, I'd only worry about the neck and bits if the dents are pretty major. If they are, your band director needs to get them repaired.

Well I wondered about this because I was told on a trumpet forum (I have a trumpet I need to get repaired) that a dent of any size on the mouthpiece or mouthpipe can really affect the tone negatively. Now theses are not 1/3 dents but they are there. My brother (another tuba player in our section) has a good neck but broken bits and has to tape the bits together and hold them so he can play (tone and volume is decreased) so he has used a perfect neck and bits from other instruments (we practice at home unlike the others in our section) and a neck that has about 1/4 dents in it and you could hear that the notes on the dented one were much stuffier than on the perfect one. Now my neck is pretty good except for the pipe that goes into the instrument (dented up enough that the joint there leaks air) and one of the bits has a slight dent which I am not sure if it has any affect or not, but it is there. Thing is at least 2 of the necks are getting replaced and at least one set of bits whenever the parts are shipped from Yamaha

[tubeast]

let´s put it this way: the closer you get to the bell, the bigger objects/dents are necessary to affect the tone.

[Dutchtown Sousa]

let´s put it this way: the closer you get to the bell, the bigger objects/dents are necessary to affect the tone.

That make's sense. I will see if I can get our band director to have the necks straightened and take the dents out of them