Why are composers considered musicians?

[Mark]

... fishing boat ...

Out of my way, Joe. I'll do what ever it takes to make 6 valves.

[chronolith]

The term faculty does not just mean you are employed by a institution of higher learning. A friend of mine lost his faculties once but I can't say an professors came flying out of his ears. This would have been preferable to the reality.

I think a musician is anyone engaged in the creation of music.

He says inviting another semantic meltdown...

[pierso20]

I guess..without getting too in depth...

it all depends on your definition.

Musician = someone who makes music

Do composers make music? Yes. Does "musician" only apply to those who PHYSICALLY make music? I don't think so.

Is a music theorist a musician? Not necessarily. Do music theorists TEND to be musicians? I would assume.

An actor could be a playwright and vice-versa. The point that has been being made is that Actor is MORE specific than Musician.

Actor is to Dramatist as Instrumentalist is to Musician
Playwright is to Dramatist as Composer is to Musician.

[MartyNeilan]

Why is a guy who owns a construction company (and never picks up a hammer or saw) called a "builder" ?

[kprinz]

An actor could be a playwright and vice-versa. The point that has been being made is that Actor is MORE specific than Musician.

Actor is to Dramatist as Instrumentalist is to Musician
Playwright is to Dramatist as Composer is to Musician.

I agree, although this particular statment brought back "fond" memories of the SAT!

[pgym]

Actors, playwrights, and directors are all dramatists.

So, comedians are not actors.

Comedians and actors are both subsets of the group "dramatist," which is itself a subset of the larger class "entertainer": a class that includes not only dramatists, but--among others--musicians and athletes. The subsets are neither co-extensive nor mutually exclusive, so some comedians are actors and some actors are comedians, but not all actors are comedians and not all comedians are actors.

Using biological taxonomy as a loose analogy*, "instrumentalist," "conductor," "composer," etc., are species of the genus "musician"; similarly, "comedian," "actor," "director," "screen writer," "playwright," etc., are species of the genus "dramatist." The various genera ("musician," "dramatist," "athlete," etc. together comprise the family "entertainer."

*The analogy is only a loose one, in that an individual entertainer may take on several roles within the course of a performance (e.g., a principal in a musical, or an actor-director in a play or film) or series of performances, whereas in biology, an individual specimen may belong to only a single species.

[Mark]

I think a musician is anyone engaged in the creation of music.

Record producers? Stage hands? Ushers? Music Directors?

[Mark]

Don't know for sure, but I'm not sure a conductor could either. And I sure have seen my share of conductors jump around in fits like a chimpanzee. I wouldn't take odds in Vegas on either one.

Do conductors also handle luggage at the airport?

[Mark]

Comedians and actors are both subsets of the group "dramatist," which is itself a subset of the larger class "entertainer": a class that includes not only dramatists, but--among others--musicians and athletes. The subsets are neither co-extensive nor mutually exclusive, so some comedians are actors and some actors are comedians, but not all actors are comedians and not all comedians are actors.

Using biological taxonomy as a loose analogy*, "instrumentalist," "conductor," "composer," etc., are species of the genus "musician"; similarly, "comedian," "actor," "director," "screen writer," "playwright," etc., are species of the genus "dramatist." The various genera ("musician," "dramatist," "athlete," etc. together comprise the family "entertainer."

*The analogy is only a loose one, in that an individual entertainer may take on several roles within the course of a performance (e.g., a principal in a musical, or an actor-director in a play or film) or series of performances, whereas in biology, an individual specimen may belong to only a single species.

Slightly obscure reference: What's all this talk about endangered fecies?

More obscure reference: I thought you said you were Canadian.

Does being so clever make me a genus? And if instrumentalist is a species, are tuba players a sub-species or a variety? I assume that a tuba player can breed with a flute player; but can an oboe plaer breed with a conductor?

[Mark]

Why are leaders of orchestras called conductors and leaders of bands called directors? Are both conductors and directors part of the one percent? (This question is for bloke.)

[tclements]

Don't ask me. Obviously, many of them aren't.....

[kprinz]

Could band directors be called such because they, especially if they are involved in public school education, have a great deal of extra-musical responsibilities in addition to the artistic direction of the ensemble and therefore have developed a title that reflects those responsibilities (similar to the "director" of a business or board). I don't have any experience with the professional orchestra conducting role; however, as a middle school band director I can tell you that only about 20-50% of my daily responsibilities have anything to do with music and even less to do with the art of conducting. Perhaps the "director" title came about because they are responsible for the oversight of the program, which would include inventory, budget, recruiting & retention, (you name it...) in addition to musical programming and concert preparation. I'm fairly certain, at least in my area (Texas) that the position name for one in charge of public school orchestras is "director" not conductor.

[Mark]

So, since many conductors are also music directors, this complicates the issue. And, what exactly is the difference between a music director and a musical director?

[kprinz]

Just for fun I looked up music director in wikipedia.com: A music director may be the director of an orchestra, the director of music for a film, the director of music at a radio station, the head of the music department in a school, the co-ordinator of the musical ensembles in a university or college (but not usually the head of the academic music department), the head bandmaster of a military band, the head organist and choirmaster of a church, or an Organist and Master of the Choristers (a title given to a Director of Music at a Cathedral, particularly in England).

I also looked up musical director in both dictionary.com and wikipedia.com: In both cases, there was no match for musical director, and I was redirected to music director. I'm not a master of the written word, but I believe I remember having someone in the past tell me that "musical director" is an improper use of the English language for some reason.

[Mark]

I also looked up musical director in both dictionary.com and wikipedia.com: In both cases, there was no match for musical director, and I was redirected to music director. I'm not a master of the written word, but I believe I remember having someone in the past tell me that "musical director" is an improper use of the English language for some reason.

A musical director might be a director that is musical. Or, it could be a director of a musical.

[Kevin Hendrick]

I think of it like a conductor of a train...basically they are in charge of starting and stopping the thing. Otherwise, it goes on without their help.

' played a concert last night (repeated this afternoon) with THREE conductors and ONE (pretty darn good) orchestra - the Memphis Symphony Orchestra.

Each conductor was responsible one of these pieces:

Hindemith - Symphonic Metamorphosis
Ravel - Piano Concerto
Dvorak - New World Symphony

The levels of musical (as in "musician") results were subtle, but notable. The conductors did more that start/stop the things.

Wouldn't someone who only starts and stops things be better referred to as a "semiconductor"?

[chronolith]

I think a musician is anyone engaged in the creation of music.

Record producers? Stage hands? Ushers? Music Directors?

Yes Mark, the stagehands... And the folks that make the stagehand's shoes also. Also the people that sold him/her the shoes. Also the people that deliver the coffee to the shoeshop where he/she bought the shoes. Also the refinery worker that plugged off the leak in containment tank that helped produce the fuel that the delivery driver used in the truck that delivered the coffee. All musicians.

[Mark]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46876

So, if the guy who made the stage hands shoes composed 4'33", would he still be a musician?

[chronolith]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46876

So, if the guy who made the stage hands shoes composed 4'33", would he still be a musician?

With a heartfelt grumble, yes. I am also a musician when I am scooping cat **** out of a box in my basement. Correlation does not equal causation, although that does give me an idea for an NEA grant request.

The reason I so easily include composers in the musician category is that "musician" is by no means an honorific title. It is not earned with anything more than the most rudimentary skill and some token amount of effort and commitment, and perhaps a coupon to the Guitar Center. Hence I happily claim John Cage as a composer and a musician (please send all flames via PM).

[Mark]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46876

So, if the guy who made the stage hands shoes composed 4'33", would he still be a musician?

With a heartfelt grumble, yes. I am also a musician when I am scooping cat **** out of a box in my basement. Correlation does not equal causation, although that does give me an idea for an NEA grant request.

The reason I so easily include composers in the musician category is that "musician" is by no means an honorific title. It is not earned with anything more than the most rudimentary skill and some token amount of effort and commitment, and perhaps a coupon to the Guitar Center. Hence I happily claim John Cage as a composer and a musician (please send all flames via PM).

Are you correlating 4'33" with the prize in a box of cat litter?

I once heard someone say that depending on the intent, dropping a book on the floor could be music.

We already know about some of the waste product creations that the NEA considers art, go for the grant.

More analogies: John Cage is to composer as Andy Warhol is to ?