Use of German F Tuba for Brass Quintet?

[Jedi Master]

Hey guys,

What are your thoughts about using a German F Tuba for brass quintet?

I am thinking Alexander/Rudy Meinl type instruments. Is that type of sound appropriate for quintet?

Please discuss.

[jcameron]

I have used a PT-15 for all my quintet playing for the last 10 years. I find the sound to be a great fit for that setting, and the performers in the various quintets that I play with like the tone. You will have to spend a lot of time acquiring a low range with a tone that can support the group, but I find that it is worth the hassle. Working on Tyrell etudes and the Gillis 70 Progressive studies (down an octave of course!) helped me when I was figuring it out.

[kathott]

Hello, I abused brass quintets for years by playing the F tuba, using it as an opportunity to stay in touch more with the high tuba. Only the trumpets liked it. I have a good F tuba too, but in a quintet I spend too much time babysitting the low end, and the music suffers as a result. I just don't like the F sound in a quintet, I've heard it, although the European players are very convincing. I alternate now between an EEb Sovereign and a Mirafone 186 CC.

[chronolith]

+1 for jcameron's comments.

I use a Mira 181 in my quintet most of the time. I find that the blend is much better than a larger horn for much of the standard rep with the exception of orchestral transcriptions and some 20th century stuff. I tend to favor larger mouthpieces for quintet work over standard solo F mouthpieces though. And yes you really have to work out the low range on the horn and get fluid with all the way down into the pedal tones. It's a tall order to work out the fluidity, low register and tuning issues, but if you can hack it you will be rewarded.

[tclements]

I would say definitively - IT DEPENDS! On the repertoire, the equipment the trumpeters are using and your overall concept in what a quintet tubist SHOULD sound like. Usually, I carry 2 horns, a CC and an F. WHICH horns depends on the venue, and the repertoire. Also, much of the rep is French (Bozza, etc) or bass trombone and the F tuba would be totally appropriate for this repertoire. Generally, I use the biggest horn I can get away with (no, NEVER a BAT) because it is easier for me to lighten up on a bigger horn, than try to force more sound out of a small one.

[TheHatTuba]

Depends. BBb, CC, Eb, and F are all fair game.

[Bob Kolada]

I don't own a rotary F tuba, but have played almost exclusively bass trombone and very small Eb tubas in quintet for years. My small piston Eb's are a bit different from rotary F's, but I think a rotary F would be an even better fit. I really don't like anything bigger than those 2 types in brass quintet. I'm getting a tiny piston Eb (10" G baritone bell, .562 valves) built up that I think I'll really like for that purpose.

[TexTuba]

Hey guys,

What are your thoughts about using a German F Tuba for brass quintet?

I am thinking Alexander/Rudy Meinl type instruments. Is that type of sound appropriate for quintet?

Please discuss.

As the owner of an Alex F, I only received compliments when used in the brass 5tet setting. It was perfect for me because it could have this very light, lyrical quality to its tone. Or pass as a small contrabass when I laid into it. I felt that there was no lit my horn couldn't handle. Now the player, otoh....

[Ben]

Hey guys,
What are your thoughts about using a German F Tuba for brass quintet?
Please discuss.

It's great! The vocal qualities of a german F allow for an interesting voice in music that demands musicality from all 5 members. I also think there are applications for other keyed instruments, and maybe a space for a 5/4-4/4 contra in some of the literature. As others have stated, it depends on your skills, and the abilites and sound concepts of those in the quintet.

I use an Alex F from 95% of my quintet work. I have pulled out a Mira 184 for some work for feel or ease of playing. I have seen a quintets work well with a 1291, Alex 163, MW2000.... also with horns smaller than mine, Yamie 621's, euphonium (monster player)... yup there is plenty of variability.

[jtuba]

The guys and gals in my BQ didn't notice a particular difference when I went from cc to f. The cc was a 40+ y/o 184; the f, MW2250. I think only tuba players give a crap what tuba players play. I would never touch the Bozza Sonatine with f, but saw someone who sounded amazing with a PT 15. Maybe I'll bring my Alex f to the next rehearsal and see what happens.

[Alex C]

I would love to hear the Bozza played with a French tuba. Don't you know it'd be farty and fun on the low notes.

[Jack Denniston]

I played a CB50 in quintets for many years. For the past few years I've been using a Willson Eb. With the Eb, the high notes are easeier and sound better and the low notes are more difficult and sound worse, but overall I lke the Eb better, and so do the people I play with and the people who listen to us play.

[jtuba]

The guys and gals in my BQ didn't notice a particular difference when I went from cc to f. The cc was a 40+ y/o 184; the f, MW2250. I think only tuba players give a crap what tuba players play. I would never touch the Bozza Sonatine with f, but saw someone who sounded amazing with a PT 15. Maybe I'll bring my Alex f to the next rehearsal and see what happens.

The 2250 is one of those F tubas that sounds a little bit more like a large

Yes it does sound like a large tuba, the 184 is more "German". People always ask why did I bring an F tuba when they first see the Mirafone. If I could find a small cc with the color of the Mirafone with the playability of the MW, I'd use that for sure. For now I've chosen playability, I'll probably vacillate between the two. The point is we get so concerned with what tuba to use and our colleagues might not even notice. Just play what you have with good pitch, time, sound, clarity, and sensitivity. If what you have isn't working, there's probably something out there that does. I'm just too lazy to try and learn the Bozza on F.

[jonesbrass]

I love the sound of an F tuba (or Eb tuba) in brass quintet. If played well, the low range can be satisfying, and in many ways easier to play on a bass tuba than a contrabass. I personally believe this is mostly in the hands of the player . . . not the equipment necessarily. YMMV

[PMeuph]

bloke "I don't own one of these, and don't see myself getting one..."

However, isn't it safe to say that by the time the Bozza Sonatina was composed (1951) the french tuba was no longer in use?

[Wyvern]

Have played in brass quintet using CC, F and Eb at different times - I would say for me Eb works the best overall.

Playing my PT-15 I felt is was a bit over dominant and soloistic. Now I am playing my Wessex JB 700 I find that works a treat to provide bass and solo passages and I am coming to appreciate again the 3+1 fingering set up when there is moving around down low.

[PMeuph]

Unlike the way that some (no...I'm not singling out any historians or any readers of history...and I'm certainly not trying to pass myself off as any sort of historian) may seem to interpret history, people (farmers, office workers, truck drivers, musicians...) haven't tended to toss equipment in the attic/woods and suddenly run out and buy new/improved stuff by a certain "historical" date, or as soon as some different/improved equipment is introduced into an environment.

Think about "tubas used in American public schools": Just about the time many "with it" American tuba players were "into" front-action piston contrabass tubas, the "rotary tubas trend" (still going strong today) was just catching on in public high schools.

I am not known to be very good at interpreting or guessing at composers' intents, but when I see written-over-a-half-century-ago French tuba parts that seem to have just about the same range as the Ravel "Pictures" orchestration (very low to very high), I start thinking that those French pieces may (??) have been written for approximately the same instrument as those "tuba" instruments that were floating around Paris about the time that Ravel orchestrated that Mussorgsky piano piece (only 29 years earlier, and - again - with a six-years-long devastating war in the middle of that 29 years).

Finally, I try to imagine post-war France in the early 1950's. Surely, things weren't "all prettied back up" (after the war) by then, and (maybe...?? again, I'm guessing) folks used stuff that they had - and were very glad to have it...

...and just maybe (??) post-war Frenchmen with the wherewithal weren't particularly enthusiastic about purchasing F, CC, Eb, or BBb tubas "made in Germany" - whether new, used, or salvage condition.

Indeed you raise some significant issues. I am sure anyone who had a french tuba in the 50's and played Bozza would have used what they had at hand.

However, did you know that the Nazis requisitioned 25 000 church bells during WWII to have them melted into shells, rifles, canons, etc...

They same held true, of metal door handles, pots and pans, tools, etc... (One could also wonder how many brass instruments were melted)

While not much documentation has been done on the French Side of things (I haven't dug too much), Some of these Nazi requisitions were in France, and the French surely did some of them before their surrender.

While I would not position that all french tubas were wiped away, I am sure that many french tubas would have been used in ammunition making.

Here is the abstract to a mildly relevant dissertation...
http://gradworks.umi.com/34/10/3410938.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Edited for this info:
What about Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony (1949). (Messiaen and Bozza are Contemporaries, both having lived in Paris most of their lives) Would you consider this work to be written for French tuba or Bass tuba. (The later being the sound I am accustomed to from recordings...)
__________
To the OP, sorry for high-jacking your thread. IMHO, I have seen people use any horn (F, CC,Eb, Bb, Euph, Bass trombone) in 5tet. If your F works well with the group, go for it.

[Wyvern]

What about Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony (1949). (Messiaen and Bozza are Contemporaries, both having lived in Paris most of their lives) Would you consider this work to be written for French tuba or Bass tuba. (The later being the sound I am accustomed to from recordings...)

Remember that that Turangalila Symphony was commissioned by Serge Koussevitzky for the Boston Symphony Orchestra - so orchestration is likely to be geared to American , rather than French orchestra of the time.

Talking of tubas available in France after the war, there may well also have been German military band instruments abandoned during the retreat. My understanding from a very interesting book on such, is that German military bands performed throughout the occupied territory almost to the end of the war. There is a German air force band BBb in museum on the Channel Islands.

[UDELBR]

My understanding is that "tuba en Ut" (aka: "French tuba") was the main instrument taught in French conservatories 'til the 1960s, with additional study on F and CC required for graduation. It's certainly not inconceivable that Bozza wrote with this instrument in mind.

[Karl H.]

Appropriate sound? But of course!

Is it the easiest, most versatile instrument for quintet use? A different question...

And are you considering purchasing an instrument specifically for quintet, or just using what you already own?

IMHO, The Best instrument for quintet is a small CC or large Eb. You can find several examples of these types that provide a nice mix of flexibility, tonal range, consistent response, and good intonation, not to mention light weight... (not in tone, in pounds/kilos).

But I've never owned an Eb or small CC, and I've enjoyed playing in quintets continuously since high school (a VERY long time ago).

At the risk of encroaching on Bloke's Old-and-Crotchety Higher Ground, I think it's important to think of musical considerations like blend, articulation, style, and volume as something that is immensely important no matter what type of tuba you are playing. Simply expressed, do you need a BAT to play loud and a small F to play soft? Do you need a BBBb to play low and a French c tuba to play high?

I don't think so.

If you can you tell the times in an ensemble that indicate blending into the sound, and those times you should stand out, shouldn't you be able to do so regardless of the size of your instrument?

I think you should.

You asked for discussion, and I've discussed. YMMV.

Think beautiful musical thoughts, and make a great sound: the metal is only an amplifier of what's going on in your head.

Karl "who nevertheless is delighted to see all the previous posts in favor of Alex Fs" H.