Conical bore tuba

[TheHatTuba]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/E-A-Couturier-C ... 602wt_1396" target="_blank

[Dan Schultz]

Very cool. I'd be a little worried about playing that horn in the local community band though.

[Kevin Hendrick]

Very cool. I'd be a little worried about playing that horn in the local community band though.

I would too -- those really were "tuned at the factory" (and to high pitch, in this case)! Looks to be in nice shape. Hope it goes to a collector.

[Walter Webb]

One of these showed up about a year ago, in BBb, and much worse condition. Could it possibly be tuned lower by lengthening the main slide, at least to Low Pitch CC, or even down to Bb? Has anybody actually played one of these Couturier tubas? I wonder...

You can really see the conical bore on the main slide diameter coming in and going out. I notice valve #1 has a bent stem. There were no lacquered horns in this era. This tuba has been lacquered, and possibly stripped of it's silver plating, although the engraving is pretty sharp. Finally, there is the horrible prospect of it being shipped without a case.

[bort]

Auction gone?

[dantetuba]

Auction gone?

No, is here.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 578wt_1189" target="_blank

How is the intonation?

[imperialbari]

One of these showed up about a year ago, in BBb, and much worse condition. Could it possibly be tuned lower by lengthening the main slide, at least to Low Pitch CC, or even down to Bb? Has anybody actually played one of these Couturier tubas? I wonder...

Wouldn’t any tinkering with the pitch blow the very purpose of this design?

Klaus

[Dan Schultz]

One of these showed up about a year ago, in BBb, and much worse condition. Could it possibly be tuned lower by lengthening the main slide, at least to Low Pitch CC, or even down to Bb? ....

Sure. You could lengthen the main slide. But... that wouldn't help all of the tuning circuits (which have no slides) from being sharp.

Like Klaus mentioned... fooling with the tubing lengths would defeat the whole purpose of the design.

(Plus... I don't think the end results would be good, anyway.)

[TheHatTuba]

Yeah.... no slides would be a concern...

[Walter Webb]

Unfortunately, nobody seems to really know about E.A. Couturier's designs, nor how they actually pan out in real life. They are so rare that nobody can report a play test. This reviewer says, "This tuba has an immense 20" bell and a suberb low end for a 3 valve tuba!" http://www.rugs-n-relics.com/Brass/tuba ... -Tuba.html" target="_blank" target="_blank

E.A. was a fabulous cornet player and spent many years designing and testing horns. I doubt he would release something that was seriously flawed, but then again his ideas never took hold in the market. Steve Mumford concludes that these continuously conical bore horns were hugely more expensive to make, with even the piston valve in/out holes being tapered. http://www.rjmartz.com/horns/Couturier_056/" target="_blank" target="_blank Even the main slide was conical because the flanges were thick enough to be tapered on the inside, but straight on the outside (at least in the second design). E.A. created a mind-boggling fully conical trombone slide! http://www.rugs-n-relics.com/Brass/trom ... r-Tbn.html" target="_blank" target="_blank

Is it not possible that those fixed branches are set at reasonable lengths and any necessary pulling could be done at the main slide? This is how I perceive the Fred Marzan B&M tubas: pretty much in tune by design, with an easy-grab main slide for any changes. Any change in the main slide length would introduce a cylindrical bottleneck.

I will not bid on this specimen, given that it will go over $1000 and that I don't play CC, but there is much to admire in a bygone age of innovation and experimentation. Couturier, the conical bore fanatic, may have been on to something. I wonder if it is significant that in 1929, "He had a mental breakdown and died in the Harlem Valley Psychiatric Center in Wingdale, N.Y."

[Tom]

Unfortunately, nobody seems to really know about E.A. Couturier's designs, nor how they actually pan out in real life. They are so rare that nobody can report a play test.

I have a friend in Indiana that is a brass instrument collector with a special interest in Couturier. He owns several Couturier instruments. He has some exceptionally rare and unusual instruments, though I do not believe he owns a Couturier tuba as of yet.

I do not want to post his name/contact info online without his blessing, but could probably get folks in touch with him if you sent me a private message or mail.

[Mikelynch]

From my experience, the Couturier tubas are an interesting idea, but one fighting against both geometry and some practical considerations. I have both a tuba and a large helicon. Both play "okay," though I have never taken one out for any performance. But they do play much better than the Harry Pedler short action arrangement, which may account for why there are a fair number of Couturier instruments around.

The geometrical challenge is that the bore cannot be consistently conical, as the dimensions of conical tubing are obviously quite different when a length of conical tubing is placed in and out of the pipe by valve up and valve down states. So even under the best of circumstances there cannot be a consistent conical bore through the instrument.

The practical challenge is that on both my my instruments, and on two others that I have seen and played, the valve cluster appears to be a conventional Conn cluster--with conventional ports. So even if the inlet port is correct at X diameter, after a length of valve tubing expands to an ID of X+Y, the airstream encounters an obstruction at another X diameter valve port. The more valves you use, the more times you hit this constriction. On one of the horns I played, it appeared that the inlet and outlet dimensions of a length of valve tubing might have been sized to straddle the port size on the pistons; but I didn't have a caliper handy to check that impression. That, of course, is again not an ideal taper.

Mike

[J.c. Sherman]

Great screaming Lucifer that's sexy!

Practically, the cornets and euphs I've worked on played pretty darned well, but you were definitely expected to lip things a bit, as with most cornets of the period. The ports and valve tubing were too tempting not to measure... and they were tapered.

J.c.S.

[Walter Webb]

As I recall, this tuba was high pitch, which pretty much renders it useless for playing with others, unless that got fixed somehow. I wondered about lengthening the main slide. This issue is not mentioned in the new post. Lee Stofer would know, since he is mentioned as working on it.

[imperialbari]

As I recall, this tuba was high pitch, which pretty much renders it useless for playing with others, unless that got fixed somehow. I wondered about lengthening the main slide. This issue is not mentioned in the new post. Lee Stofer would know, since he is mentioned as working on it.

Probably said before: a lengthening would blow the uniqueness of this conical design. And what about the slide-less valve loops?

Aside from a museum the only obvious usage would be period bands playing in the old high pitch.

Klaus

[J.c. Sherman]

As I recall, this tuba was high pitch, which pretty much renders it useless for playing with others, unless that got fixed somehow. I wondered about lengthening the main slide. This issue is not mentioned in the new post. Lee Stofer would know, since he is mentioned as working on it.

Probably said before: a lengthening would blow the uniqueness of this conical design. And what about the slide-less valve loops?

Aside from a museum the only obvious usage would be period bands playing in the old high pitch.

Klaus

You could fabricate a custom, fully-tapered low-pitch slide. Pricey job, but probably well worth it to the next owner.

[windshieldbug]

You could fabricate a custom, fully-tapered low-pitch slide. Pricey job, but probably well worth it to the next owner.

All of the Conical Bore brass were originally supplied with three tuning slides, of progressively longer size, in order to minimize the cylindrical length involved and thus compromise the conical design.

[Frank Ortega]

How about a longer leadpipe? That would eliminate the problem of interrupting the taper of the instrument itself and a good Brass Tech could try to mimic the leadpipe taper as colosely as possible.

-F

[J.c. Sherman]

How about a longer leadpipe? That would eliminate the problem of interrupting the taper of the instrument itself and a good Brass Tech could try to mimic the leadpipe taper as colosely as possible.

-F

And probably destroy the intended articulation of the horn; an extended tuning slide was implied in manufacture and is instantly reversible.