Vaughan Williams Tuba Concerto

[BAtlas]

Did anyone say buzzing yet?

[bentuba7]

Tinytubust,

It is much better to play a piece and OWN it than to stumble through it. Especially when auditioning for the World Youth Symphony Orchestra. I study here at Interlochen with Tom Riccobono, who would end up judging your audition tape. I can tell you that he would much rather hear you play something like Gregson or even Hartley or Haddad and kick *** and control the instrument rather than have the instrument control you. I played with WYSO this past summer and got the spot by playing the Gordon Jacob Suite. Its tough to lay the Vaughan Williams on a a contra. I'm currently playing it on my meinl weston 46 F for the concerto competition. I never intend on trying it on my CC. I can also say that is is difficult to assume you will get the WYSO spot. The talent level here during the summer rides very high. Be competitive! Best of luck!!

Hope that advice helps

Ben

[peter birch]

this is all very well, but what will happen when you get a piece that is not recorded by a great player or not recorded at all? What I think I am really suggesting is that part of learning music is to develop the confidence to play the music as you read it and learn how to interpret it for yourself.

When you get to such a piece, then you must develop a fresh interpretation. At least your audience won't have preconceptions of what it should sound like.

But why do this with a piece that 1.) has been recorded many times, and 2.) has been heard many times by this student's critical listeners?

I put a quintet together once for a wedding, and we played some arrangements by the Canadian Brass. We were rehearsing one piece and at the end I suggested a particular phrasing because it's how the CB had done it with that work. One of the trumpet players suggested that we should do it our way. My response: When we can play it as well as the Canadian Brass, we will have earned the right to apply our own interpretation.

Part of preparation is knowing the literature, and that includes how others have interpreted it. Listen to the recordings of this work that are available, starting with Catelinet in 1953, Bell in 1954, Jacobs in the late 60's, Fletcher a bit later, and others more recently. It took a couple of performances of the work even for top professionals to find an interpretation that explored the potential of the work. That performance practice curve was pretty steep for the work's first 20 years. Should we ignore that experience?

Rick "whose advice to those who want to write well is to read lots" Denney

well, should performers pander to the preconceptions of the audience? I really don't think so. We could just roll out a critically acclaimed recording of any piece you care to mention, play it to them and leave the satisfied without us bothering to learn it, and I am sure that you are not going to suggest we do that.
Your remarks about Canadian Brass are interesting, because I am sure that the one voice that would oppose the view that you have to play it as well as Canadian Brass before interpreting it for yourself would be Canadian Brass themselves. Should we ignore their experience, my answer would be that since this is music, and not deep sea diving or open heart surgery and that no lives are at risk, yes - they had to go through the learning process, and they gained from it so why should we try to avoid it.
Now the Vaughn Williams is of its time and techniques may have moved on, and I have the recordings of Arnold Jacobs, Jim Gourlay and one or two others on my shelf but I for one, would like to think that even a young music student might find new insights into this music and be prepared to share them, or else there is little point in being a musician

[tuba.bobby]

this is all very well, but what will happen when you get a piece that is not recorded by a great player or not recorded at all? What I think I am really suggesting is that part of learning music is to develop the confidence to play the music as you read it and learn how to interpret it for yourself.

When you get to such a piece, then you must develop a fresh interpretation. At least your audience won't have preconceptions of what it should sound like.

But why do this with a piece that 1.) has been recorded many times, and 2.) has been heard many times by this student's critical listeners?

I put a quintet together once for a wedding, and we played some arrangements by the Canadian Brass. We were rehearsing one piece and at the end I suggested a particular phrasing because it's how the CB had done it with that work. One of the trumpet players suggested that we should do it our way. My response: When we can play it as well as the Canadian Brass, we will have earned the right to apply our own interpretation.

Part of preparation is knowing the literature, and that includes how others have interpreted it. Listen to the recordings of this work that are available, starting with Catelinet in 1953, Bell in 1954, Jacobs in the late 60's, Fletcher a bit later, and others more recently. It took a couple of performances of the work even for top professionals to find an interpretation that explored the potential of the work. That performance practice curve was pretty steep for the work's first 20 years. Should we ignore that experience?

Rick "whose advice to those who want to write well is to read lots" Denney

well, should performers pander to the preconceptions of the audience? I really don't think so. We could just roll out a critically acclaimed recording of any piece you care to mention, play it to them and leave the satisfied without us bothering to learn it, and I am sure that you are not going to suggest we do that.
Your remarks about Canadian Brass are interesting, because I am sure that the one voice that would oppose the view that you have to play it as well as Canadian Brass before interpreting it for yourself would be Canadian Brass themselves. Should we ignore their experience, my answer would be that since this is music, and not deep sea diving or open heart surgery and that no lives are at risk, yes - they had to go through the learning process, and they gained from it so why should we try to avoid it.
Now the Vaughn Williams is of its time and techniques may have moved on, and I have the recordings of Arnold Jacobs, Jim Gourlay and one or two others on my shelf but I for one, would like to think that even a young music student might find new insights into this music and be prepared to share them, or else there is little point in being a musician

Were not saying that a musician has to copy the recordings. Even if you try and copy a recording you'll never make it sound exactly the same purely because were all different. But why should someone have trudge through the learning process of a piece blindly when there are many torches available to guide the way?! You've admitted you have your own recordings, are you saying you've never listened to them?! Never learnt from them?!

Listening to others preconceived ideas about a piece (especially amateur and student musicians) helps you understand the piece better before you introduce your own ideas. My teachers favourite thing to say when I bring a new piece along is; 'listen to a recording.' If it doesn't work why do teachers recommend it? And if it didn't work how do people get where they are today by doing it?

[peter birch]

Were not saying that a musician has to copy the recordings. Even if you try and copy a recording you'll never make it sound exactly the same purely because were all different. But why should someone have trudge through the learning process of a piece blindly when there are many torches available to guide the way?! You've admitted you have your own recordings, are you saying you've never listened to them?! Never learnt from them?!

Listening to others preconceived ideas about a piece (especially amateur and student musicians) helps you understand the piece better before you introduce your own ideas. My teachers favourite thing to say when I bring a new piece along is; 'listen to a recording.' If it doesn't work why do teachers recommend it? And if it didn't work how do people get where they are today by doing it?

some lessons you have to learn for yourself, so yes sometimes we do have to trudge the path and put in the hard hours to learn the stuff, I don't really think there is a way round it, and yes I listen to the recordings and enjoy them, for their own sake as much as anything else.
why do teachers do it? I don't know, but it does seem that sometimes students and teachers sometimes look for shortcuts in the learning process and it means that later in life you have to go back and fill in the gaps left by bypassing it earlier

[PMeuph]

some lessons you have to learn for yourself, so yes sometimes we do have to trudge the path and put in the hard hours to learn the stuff, I don't really think there is a way round it, and yes I listen to the recordings and enjoy them, for their own sake as much as anything else.

I think EVERYONE on this board would agree that you have to learn certain things by yourself. In reality, I have taken lessons and masterclasses with many great players and some things they tried to explain never made sense until I finally "figured it out" by myself. Teachers can't explain everything in a way that every single student will understand right away.

why do teachers do it? I don't know, but it does seem that sometimes students and teachers sometimes look for shortcuts in the learning process and it means that later in life you have to go back and fill in the gaps left by bypassing it earlier

I, for one, do not think a recording is a shortcut. It may seem that way at first, but in reality the creative process is, imho, way more complex than you give it credit for. To me, everything we have ever heard will influence our musical personality so why not directly reference it when it comes time to learn the work. Every tubist out there, no matter what the level, should listen to the Vaughan Williams. So why not listen to it directly before working on the work, taking some notes and then trying stuff out. The notion that we live in a vacuum and that our learning process will just develop itself by not working at it directly is not something I agree with.

Caveat: I do not recommend recordings to absolute beginners as a method to bypass fundamentals such as pitches, rhythm, etc... I recommend them to players who understand enough to play all the notes and play the work musically but that there musical thinking is to constricted...

As to the gaps that you refer to, I think if someone has solid fundamentals: Sound, Tuning, Breathing, Technique, etc... Then the gaps that you refer to will not be as big as you claim (or probably nonexistent)...

[PMeuph]

I remember (a couple of decades ago, when improvements in flutes - tuning/resonance - were sweeping the industry) some flute teacher complaining that "new flutes" were "too easy" for their students to play, and that their students should have to learn to play on the same (harder-to-play) flutes that they themselves had learned to play when they were students.

The ridiculous extension of that though would be to say that Vaughan Williams should be played on:

[Mark]

I am working on that right now for college auditions!

I ... would like to think that even a young music student might find new insights into this music and be prepared to share them, or else there is little point in being a musician

I think if you bring a new and very different interpretation of the VW to an audition, you may not do well.

[PMeuph]

I am working on that right now for college auditions!

I ... would like to think that even a young music student might find new insights into this music and be prepared to share them, or else there is little point in being a musician

I think if you bring a new and very different interpretation of the VW to an audition, you may not do well.

That reminds me... 2-3 years ago, I heard Gene Pokorny play the Second movement in a recital, it was by far the most radically different version I have ever heard. But, it was AMAZING!!! However, probably very few other tubists than Pokorny could have pulled it off so well considering all the particular details he brought to the music.

Moral of the story, if someone can play as well as Pokorny, then they can do whatever they want and be as fresh as possible. But, if the playing is not in Pokorny's league, then they should be more conservative...

[eupher61]

well, should performers pander to the preconceptions of the audience? I really don't think so.

Not at all, and no one is saying that. They're saying use the tools that are available, and use them as part of an individualization. If the OP is indeed a high school student, is his current teacher someone who really knows the piece, as a player, or a trombone player (or whatever) who heard of it and thinks it would be good. And, no matter who the teacher, is that teacher going to spoon-feed an interpretation that the student may not like? Listening to others gives a chance for inexperienced interpreters to investigate individual ideas of otherwise incoherent inscriptions of music.

IOW, I'm with Bloke on this.

[Rick Denney]

well, should performers pander to the preconceptions of the audience? I really don't think so. We could just roll out a critically acclaimed recording of any piece you care to mention, play it to them and leave the satisfied without us bothering to learn it, and I am sure that you are not going to suggest we do that.

We weren't talking about an audience. We were talking about an audition committee. Academic audition committees don't, it seems to me, just want to know if it sounds good, they also want to know what the student performer knows about the music, and what commitment he brings to performing the music. Those are just as important, it seems to me, in predicting his success in their program.

And any high-school kid who can match any acclaimed recording you care to mention is, frankly, beyond our advice. But where I did I say he needed to match a recording? Listening to recordings tells us what has been done so that we can take additional steps if we are able to see and execute what those steps should be. It's like doing a literature review in research. If you crave innovation, how else will you know your innovation is, well, innovative?

Your remarks about Canadian Brass are interesting, because I am sure that the one voice that would oppose the view that you have to play it as well as Canadian Brass before interpreting it for yourself would be Canadian Brass themselves.

My point to my trumpet-playing colleague was not that we should play it as well as the CB before attempting our own interpretation, but that we should avoid cheesy and amateurish interpretations. If we needed to copy what the CB did to accomplish that, then that was the gig. I didn't want to tell him straight out that the interpretation he was suggesting was cheesy and amateurish, so I took a different approach. He got the point.

I have heard too many young and amateur players apply immature and cheesy "interpretation" to music, thinking they were breaking new ground or establishing their individuality. Most of the time, they were covering for parts they could not play well enough as written. And most of the time, more experienced listeners would (inwardly, perhaps) roll their eyes.

We learn art by copying artists until we have sufficient artistic command to make our own statement.

Rick "who learned that any innovation starts with a thorough understanding of what has already been done" Denney

[Amilcare]

Remember the published version has so many errors in it as to be useless.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Remember the published version has so many errors in it as to be useless.

Funny, it's worked just fine for me for years. Different strokes, I suppose.

[PMeuph]

Someone who REALLY knows tell me how much (or how little) of the solo part (from the manuscript rental score) I'm allowed to post for "discussion purposes", and how long I must wait to "discuss" more of it.

bloke "who is not interested in addressing a suit, or even a warning, from a publisher"

Technically, since there is no educational ("discussion") clause to this forum and you don't have permission from the publisher, you can't post any of it. However, if you had the first edition and were in Canada (or any other country with a life + 50 copyright notice) then you could post it.
IMSLP has the score listed. However it is currently blocked. (probably due to a cease and desist from the publisher.

Google image search yields several previews:

[Rick Denney]

Joe, why don't you create a list of "pen and ink" edits to the published version, by measure number. People would still have to buy a copy before they could make use of them. That would not be a copyright violation in any form.

Stuff like: "the first three 16th notes of beat X in measure Y should be slurred."

Rick "noting the avoidance of the fair use question because it doesn't 'use' anything" Denney

[Homerun]

Joe, why don't you create a list of "pen and ink" edits to the published version, by measure number. People would still have to buy a copy before they could make use of them. That would not be a copyright violation in any form.

Stuff like: "the first three 16th notes of beat X in measure Y should be slurred."

Rick "noting the avoidance of the fair use question because it doesn't 'use' anything" Denney

1/ It would nearly be a book, as far as all of the "words" are concerned. (Page one is not only the shortest, but the easiest to fix - as well as the easiest to verbally describe.)

2/ I already have all of the corrections for my own use, and others don't seem particularly interested in them.

I am very interested.

[Rick Denney]

Joe, why don't you create a list of "pen and ink" edits to the published version, by measure number. People would still have to buy a copy before they could make use of them. That would not be a copyright violation in any form.

Stuff like: "the first three 16th notes of beat X in measure Y should be slurred."

Rick "noting the avoidance of the fair use question because it doesn't 'use' anything" Denney

1/ It would nearly be a book, as far as all of the "words" are concerned. (Page one is not only the shortest, but the easiest to fix - as well as the easiest to verbally describe.)

2/ I already have all of the corrections for my own use, and others don't seem particularly interested in them.

Well, you are just fishing for begging. You know others are interested--they have expressed that interest in the past.

Put it in a spreadsheet. Measure number in one column, beat in the next column, verbal description in the following column. My description above is probably too wordy. If it's too much work, send me your copy, and I'll do it and then send it back to you. I doubt it would take more than a couple of hours.

Here's a real example, now that I'm not on my iPhone:

M4, B2. Extend slur from B2 to M5.
M6, B2. Extend slur over last three 16th notes.
M7, B1. Extend slur over last three 16th notes.
M9, B1. Replace slur with slur over last three 16th notes.
M10, B1. Add slur over last three 16th notes.
M12, B1. Decrescendo into M13.
M15. Replace slurs with slur over entire phrase through M16, B2.
M26, B1. Mark forte.
M27. Replace slurs with slur over entire phrase through M29, B2.
M27, B2. Last three 16th notes are F, Gb, B(b).
M33, B1. Add tenuto mark over first eighth note.
M33, M34. Add slurs over 16th-note pairs.
M38, M39. Add slurs over 16th-note pairs.
M42, B1. Mark forte.
M55. Remove dolce marking.
M61. Remove phrasing mark.
M67. Remove descrescendo.
M68. Remove piano marking.
M69, B1-2/3. Add decrescendo though end of B2.

That took me ten minutes.

Rick "somebody's gotta do it" Denney

[Ken Herrick]

Joe, why don't you create a list of "pen and ink" edits to the published version, by measure number. People would still have to buy a copy before they could make use of them. That would not be a copyright violation in any form.


Put it in a spreadsheet. Measure number in one column, beat in the next column, verbal description in the following column. My description above is probably too wordy. If it's too much work, send me your copy, and I'll do it and then send it back to you. I doubt it would take more than a couple of hours.

Here's a real example, now that I'm not on my iPhone:

M4, B2. Extend slur from B2 to M5.
M6, B2. Extend slur over last three 16th notes.
M7, B1. Extend slur over last three 16th notes.
M9, B1. Replace slur with slur over last three 16th notes.
M10, B1. Add slur over last three 16th notes.
M12, B1. Decrescendo into M13.
M15. Replace slurs with slur over entire phrase through M16, B2.
M26, B1. Mark forte.
M27. Replace slurs with slur over entire phrase through M29, B2.
M27, B2. Last three 16th notes are F, Gb, B(b).
M33, B1. Add tenuto mark over first eighth note.
M33, M34. Add slurs over 16th-note pairs.
M38, M39. Add slurs over 16th-note pairs.
M42, B1. Mark forte.
M55. Remove dolce marking.
M61. Remove phrasing mark.
M67. Remove descrescendo.
M68. Remove piano marking.
M69, B1-2/3. Add decrescendo though end of B2.

That took me ten minutes.

Rick "somebody's gotta do it" Denney

And.......once it was done, multiple copies could be printed and sold for say $20 a copy or with the printed version for the price of it plus the $20 for the directions on how to 'do it'. Wouldn't blame anybody for making some $$$. I have my card ready to order now - don't even need the steak knives. Would $50 get the lot mailed to me in Illinois? If "YES", your phone will ring.

[PMeuph]

"Wite-out all slur or phrase markings in the entire movement."

A bass prof at the school where I was an undergrad had the following policy for all of his students and all the pieces they played.

1. Buy the music
2. Photocopy the solo part and the piano part. (or type them in Finale/Sibelius)
3. Erase all phrasings, bowing, dynamics marks etc...
4.Write some tentative marks in pencil
5. consult with him on those markings (Take his suggestions)
6. have your own version of the piece.

[Rick Denney]

I'm sure Oxford Univ. Press would be delighted.

Here's the problem with expressing errata in words (particularly when there are hundreds of changes): Many would misinterpret the "words", and many others would email asking questions about whether the "words" mean "this" or "that".

I will say this: Were the 2nd mvt's inconsistencies converted to words, the first instruction would need to be

"Wite-out all slur or phrase markings in the entire movement."

Do you want what you know to get out or not?

And if you do, are you willing to admit the possibility of slight errors in the interpretation of the words, versus the huge errors now in the published work?

What's wrong with the instruction you wrote above? It's easy to start by erasing all the existing slur markings. One sentence saves you a whole bottle of computer white-out.

Don't you think that an errata sheet, if published widely with some authoritative provenance, might encourage OUP to put out a "special" version?

Personally, I think marking up the pages people post exposes you to far more risk of legal action than making an errata sheet, because you are participating in the dissemination of graphics that could be used to avoid the purchase of the protected work. An errata sheet will not do that, and is thus immune from an infringement claim.

But, like I said, if you don't want to do it, send it to me and I'll make up the errata sheet. If someone asks the meaning of a marking, I'll say, "the errata statement is what it is. Take your best shot." But I really don't think what I wrote above is any more likely to be misinterpreted than your computer-based hand markings, which don't terminate slurs very precisely in all cases. But they do get the idea across just fine--just as the written errata would.

Rick "what's your goal?" Denney