Intonation Problems

[TinyTubist97]

My King 2341 has some weird tuning issues:

1st and 2nd valves alone are always flat with the slides all the way in, but combined they're sharp.

3rd valve is really flat but 2nd and 3rd combo is really sharp.

I could tune the instrument to be in tune with itself but then when I play with anyone else it wont sound good.

Any ideas? I don't want to have to learn alternate fingerings if I don't absolutely have to.

[Donn]

I could tune the instrument to be in tune with itself

?

[Bob Kolada]

Could you list some example notes?

Assuming reasonable partials, I generally tune a 4 valve tuba pretty normally-
1- To itself, if I'm not going to move it then some sort of happy medium (some tubas are better than others).
2- To itself.
3- So that 23 is in tune.
4- 13 replacement; if, on a Bb, C and low F have different spots it makes sense to tune it to that C. I like 4th valves that can be tuned flat but none of the horns I'm playing can do that. Some don't even have 4th valves anyways.

I rarely pull for 12. When you consider how long tubas are, an extra inch doesn't really make sense. IMO, that is a place where a strong buzz and accurate sense of the note replaces slide work. I am a big fan of main slide rods and usable main slides for problem notes (I do NOT want to use one for a 6" pull in the low range ) but it's not always an easy add on.

Unfortunately, alternate fingerings are a big part of playing many tubas. Beyond intonation I'll also use them for smoother slurs, awkward passages,...

[tclements]

Assuming it is a BBb tuba (sorry, I don't know the King numbers). Make sure the open F (right below the staff) and the middle Bb (in the staff) are in tune. If you can't get these 2 open notes in tune, you'll need a tuning jigger on the main slide. Tune the 2nd valve to A, bottom space. Tune the first valve to Ab, bottom space. Tune the 3rd valve to G, bottom line. Tune the 4th valve to be the same as the open F. This should make it in tune with itself. You will probably have to push in the first valve slide for second space c's & 2nd line b's. Good luck.

[TinyTubist97]

I could tune the instrument to be in tune with itself

?

So when I play, all the notes sound in tune with each other but they arent really in tune if you were to put them up to a tuner. Kinda like how orchestral instruments seem to be sharp so in a symphony orchestra the non-string instruments tune sharp so the whole ensemble is in tune with each other. hope that makes more sense!

[TinyTubist97]

And thanks for the answers ill try them.

[Mark]

So when I play, all the notes sound in tune with each other but they arent really in tune if you were to put them up to a tuner. Kinda like how orchestral instruments seem to be sharp so in a symphony orchestra the non-string instruments tune sharp so the whole ensemble is in tune with each other. hope that makes more sense!

No. I hope all of the instruments tune to the same pitch.

[TinyTubist97]

1- To itself, if I'm not going to move it then some sort of happy medium (some tubas are better than others).
2- To itself.
3- So that 23 is in tune.
4- 13 replacement; if, on a Bb, C and low F have different spots it makes sense to tune it to that C. I like 4th valves that can be tuned flat but none of the horns I'm playing can do that. Some don't even have 4th valves anyways.

I just tried that and the 2nd valve is in tune with some embouchure adjustment but when I add the 3rd to it its very flat and the slide is all the way in.

[Mark]

1- To itself, if I'm not going to move it then some sort of happy medium (some tubas are better than others).
2- To itself.
3- So that 23 is in tune.
4- 13 replacement; if, on a Bb, C and low F have different spots it makes sense to tune it to that C. I like 4th valves that can be tuned flat but none of the horns I'm playing can do that. Some don't even have 4th valves anyways.

I just tried that and the 2nd valve is in tune with some embouchure adjustment but when I add the 3rd to it its very flat and the slide is all the way in.

Do what Tony says.

[Bob Kolada]

Sounds like 2 needs the hacksaw, and possibly 1. If you do that, probably best to cut the lower half of the 1st slide. Probably even better to get someone else to try playing it first.

[PMeuph]

Without being to mean or harsh...

Do You hear them as out of tune?

Are you able to tell when several people playing are in tune?

Can you sing back a major scale in tune?

If you hear someone sing a scale can you tell if they are in tune or not, and on the notes that are out of tune can you tell if they are too sharp or too flat?

In other words: How good are your ears?
_______

There was recently a debate in an other thread on tuning and tuning apparatuses and to whether or not they should be used. The one thing that everyone could agree on is that if the player can't hear something in tune which ever method you try to correct it with is almost rendered futile...

[TinyTubist97]

So now that I have the F and Bb in tune, everything else seems to be around 5-10 cents flat with all of the slides pushed in.

[TinyTubist97]

Without being to mean or harsh...

Do You hear them as out of tune?

Are you able to tell when several people playing are in tune?

Can you sing back a major scale in tune?

If you hear someone sing a scale can you tell if they are in tune or not, and on the notes that are out of tune can you tell if they are too sharp or too flat?

In other words: How good are your ears?
_______

There was recently a debate in an other thread on tuning and tuning apparatuses and to whether or not they should be used. The one thing that everyone could agree on is that if the player can't hear something in tune which ever method you try to correct it with is almost rendered futile...

I used multiple different tuners but I don't really need one because it's pretty obvious how out of tune it is, and yes I actually have a pretty good ear for those things and i've started to develop relative pitch.

[tclements]

Private message sent......

[PMeuph]

I used multiple different tuners but I don't really need one because it's pretty obvious how out of tune it is, and yes I actually have a pretty good ear for those things and i've started to develop relative pitch.

Tuners are good, but I find drones to be the best way to practice intonation by yourself...

These ones are free:
http://www.dwerden.com/intonation-helper.cfm" target="_blank

[jamsav]

newer or older 2341 is , as previously mentioned, a point and shoot horn...yup, you can give a pull to 1-2 combo, you can set the 4th loop a bit longer, but there generally are not any inherent intonation issues with these horns. Get with your teacher or band director and tuner- if you are consistently 5 to 10 cents flat or sharp it could be an embouchure issue , a mouthpiece issue , a problem with the horn , a problem with how you hear yourself in relation to other players-heck, maybe your tuner isnt calibrated....we cant tell from where we sit- get with the local pro !

[Gilligan]

Question...

What mouthpiece are you using with the horn??

If everything is playing flat, I'd try different mouthpieces until I found one that had me matching better with my horn. I have a friend who plays the 2341 and is using a Perentucci 48. It is giving him great tone and I haven't notice any tuning issues when he plays.

Also get with a good player who can evaluate how you are producing your buzz. Embouchure position, tongue position, and jaw position can all have an effect on tuning and sound quality.

[iiipopes]

Welcome to "3-valve land"!! (yes, I know it's a 2341, but it's the same valve block) Your horn was purposely built that way so the multi-valve combinations are not so sharp as to not be lippable. My inherited WWII-era King Silvertone cornet is the same way, and so is every other valved H.N.White era King instrument I've ever played, with a semi-exception of my dad's trumpet (before it got stolen -- see my signature): the 1st valve slide on that particular trumpet is actually in tune on that particular horn because it has a thumb ring, but 3rd valve alone is flat, and is actually in two parts so the player can set it for 2+3, because the throw for 1+3 is only about 3/8 inch due to the collared design of the slide so it doesn't fall out when the horn is set down on a stand.

Anyway, back to your tuba: it will play best with an old King 26 mouthpiece or something similar that facilitates wide "slotting," so you can center and lip the pitch without regard to the slide settings.

On these tubas, these are not intonation "problems." These are intonation "characteristics."

[Paul Tkachenko]

It has been my experience that it is worth getting a mouthpiece that works with your tuba. The wrong one can really mess up the tuning.