Pedal Tones

[Donn]

If you can play the fundamental on a tuba, you can probably play it on a sewer pipe - it's all in your lips.

Feels like the tuba supports those notes. The smaller the tuba, the more compelling that feeling is - not so much on my sousaphone, but that Eb is pretty solid on my Eb bass, compared for example to the false notes above. Alto horn doesn't seem to support false notes at all, but the 1st partial jumps right out.

As for the definition ... whatever, just don't use "low Bb", "high F", etc. as if they're supposed to mean anything. For any "high F", there's a higher F that's also "high F".

[Waltski]

The octave below low BBb. This is called the first partial. Every note played in first partial or below is a pedal note, on any instrument. Even if those trumpet players call those false tones from g to c "pedals" they are not.

Sorry to be dense, but could you draw that on a bass clef staff?

[GC]

@Todd: I see that your signature is appropriate.

The definition of pedal tones I learned long ago (okay, maybe incorrectly) was any tones below the standard range of the instrument (low E for a BBb tuba). I've seen nothing in any of these posts to convince me otherwise.

Just because you're not convinced doesn't mean you're not wrong.

And the reverse applies.

Plus, since when does "(okay, maybe incorrectly)" mean I'm convinced?

[Donn]

The definition of pedal tones I learned long ago (okay, maybe incorrectly) was any tones below the standard range of the instrument (low E for a BBb tuba). I've seen nothing in any of these posts to convince me otherwise.

It won't be possible to prove that any particular definition is correct. There are several definitions in more or less common usage, and our job is to come to some consensus over one of them so that we're all talking about the same thing.

In principle, the problem with a definition that depends on "standard range" is that this term is even less well defined. If low E is the bottom of the BBb tuba's range, where does the standard range of the CC tuba stop - D, I suppose? F tuba's standard range ends at B? In practice, of course, the problem is that it isn't what most of us mean when we say "pedal."

On the other hand, I believe some reasonably well informed people consider the "false" tone notes to be acoustically pedal tones, for reasons I don't really follow. Though semantically different, this definition allows the same notes. I don't think it would be acceptable to anyone though if it's just me attributing that point of view to some unknown authority, there would have to be a reference.

[GC]

Actually, the definition I have used depends on the old 3-valve fingering chart, which would put the bottom "standard" range of a CC horn at F#. It makes sense that the 3-valve chart is obsolete for 4 or more valve horns, so there's definitely merit in defining pedal tones as the fundamental on down.

[sloan]

The problem is: there is no "official" definition of "pedal tone" for any brass instrument. It's a metaphorical expression probably made originally as clever wordplay and then (as usual) cast into concrete by generation after generation of followers who believe that there is something "official" about how it was first used in their presence, or by their instructor. And then these folk become teachers and pass it down as gospel.

There are well developed, and widely accepted designations for pitches - use them instead.
"Pedal Tone" is useless for communication - because every third person has a different definition. None of those definitions are any "better" than the others.

The fun really begins when people try to define "pedal tone" by using other vague or mis-understood terms.

lacquer or silver?

RAW BRASS!

[imperialbari]

The term pedal tones comes from certain organ stops.

[sloan]

The term pedal tones comes from certain organ stops.

Really? Please explain.

[PMeuph]

The term pedal tones comes from certain organ stops.

Really? Please explain.

Pedal note.

The lowest of the series of notes that can be sounded on a brass instrument with a given setting of any slide or valves. The term derives from the association of deep sounds with the pedals of an organ. The lowest octave of the serpent and the ophicleide consists of pedal notes (C–c for the most common size). Pedal notes have been used on the trombone from Berlioz onwards: on the B♭ trombone, the pedals are B♭′ down to E′. French horns with shorter tube lengths (such as the B♭ side of the double horn) can sound pedal notes easily; they are difficult on instruments with longer lengths such as the horn in 12′ F. Pedal notes are used frequently on tubas and euphoniums, but rarely on trumpets and cornets, and then only in showy solos. For instruments with a high proportion of cylindrical tubing, such as trombones, the air column does not have a mode of vibration at the correct frequency to support the fundamental (first harmonic) of the pedal note, which can only be sounded because of a ‘co-operative regime’ in which its higher harmonics are supported by higher modes of resonance of the tube. As a result, these pedal notes have a bright but hollow tone quality.

FWIW, the point whether false tones are actually pedal notes is kind of moot. The acoustical explanation for false tones is that there is a shift in the nodal center of the instrument and the instrument is "transformed" into a third-pipe rather than a half-pipe. So indeed these can be called pedal points if we accept pedal point as a synonym for first partial and accept that "acoustically" speaking there is another instrument being temporarily created.

[sloan]

W H O O S H...

[basspiper]

I was taught the pedal range was the instrument's fundamental and below. So for a BBb tuba, it'd be the lowest Bb on a standard piano. For a CC tuba, the lowest C on the piano, and so on. For euphonium and trombone the pedal range begins an octave higher. No one knows about trumpets.

Since nearly all my formal training was on bass trombone I got pretty familiar with the horn's pedal range.

...As a result, these pedal notes have a bright but hollow tone quality.

...but that about sums up the chainsaw effect.

Dave

[sloan]

What are the pedal tones on a piccolo?

[Dutchtown Sousa]

I was taught the pedal range was the instrument's fundamental and below. So for a BBb tuba, it'd be the lowest Bb on a standard piano. For a CC tuba, the lowest C on the piano, and so on. For euphonium and trombone the pedal range begins an octave higher. No one knows about trumpets.

Since nearly all my formal training was on bass trombone I got pretty familiar with the horn's pedal range.

...As a result, these pedal notes have a bright but hollow tone quality.

...but that about sums up the chainsaw effect.

Dave

I have heard trumpets are pitched 2 octaves above tubas so would it make sense if their pedal tones are 2 octaves above a tuba's pedal tones?

[GC]

What are the pedal tones on a piccolo?

Depends on your buzz . . .

[PMeuph]

I have heard trumpets are pitched 2 octaves above tubas so would it make sense if their pedal tones are 2 octaves above a tuba's pedal tones?

Yes. (So a Bb trumpets, pedal not range starts on the Bb in the bass clef and descends to the e natural below that, (In sounding pitches))

[TexTuba]

And the reverse applies.

Plus, since when does "(okay, maybe incorrectly)" mean I'm convinced?

Believe whatever you want...

[eupher61]

Take a string, stretched to whatever tension. Length makes no difference.

Pluck that string. The pitch which is produced is the fundamental pitch of the string. That is also the first note of the overtone series, or the partials, or the harmonics, of the string. The whole is a partial, yes. Ratio of 1:1

Divide that string in half, pluck. You should get the octave. Second partial. 1:2

The false tones are not part of the overtone series. Thus, they are not "pedal tones" as is generally accepted. They are called False Tones because their fundamental is not really playable on the instrument with that fingering. Show me an Eb on a BBb tuba, aside from the false tone or screech range, played open. It ain't there.

I'm not a scientist by any stretch, but them's about as close to facts as any acoustician could do in plain language. I'll find my colij textbook if needed.

steve

[GC]

The false tones are not part of the overtone series. Thus, they are not "pedal tones" as is generally accepted. They are called False Tones because their fundamental is not really playable on the instrument with that fingering. Show me an Eb on a BBb tuba, aside from the false tone or screech range, played open. It ain't there.

This makes some sense, but I think it misses the point again. No matter what you want to say about false tones and their genesis, they are very definitely playable on the instrument. There have been innumberable posts here about use of false tones. They do not resonate as well as tones from the harmonic series, but they definitely have musical value. But that has little to do with definitions of pedal tones unless you insist that pedal tones MUST be generated from the harmonic range. I haven't seen any reason that it must be restricted to that other than "because I said so".

@TexTuba: "Believe whatever you want..."

Meh. http://www.coldfusionjedi.com/images/TR ... -97874.jpg

[sloan]

Take a string, stretched to whatever tension. Length makes no difference.

Tubas do not use strings.

That way be dragons.

[Donn]

The false tones are not part of the overtone series. Thus, they are not "pedal tones" as is generally accepted. They are called False Tones because their fundamental is not really playable on the instrument with that fingering. Show me an Eb on a BBb tuba, aside from the false tone or screech range, played open. It ain't there.

I'm not a scientist by any stretch, but them's about as close to facts as any acoustician could do in plain language. I'll find my colij textbook if needed.

As painful as this must be to some, facts don't really apply here. It's this silly word, "pedal", and what's really its "general accepted" meaning. No one is in possession of the facts about that, because there really aren't any.

At best, if we all agree on a definition that's meaningful in terms of the acoustics of brass instruments, we should still remember when speaking to others that outside of this context, "pedal" just means really low note as would be played on the pedals of an organ, and if there were such a thing as a factual definition, that would probably be it.

(minor nitpick: I think the first sentence above should say "partial series" - I thought "overtone" describes all the partials but the fundamental, so if false tones aren't overtones, if anything that would actually support the "pedal" classification.)