What to do if I get a degree in music?

[Rex Roeges]

I’ve read through this entire conversation and am impressed at the variety of opinions. The diversity of thought is positively refreshing! I may as well toss mine into the maelstrom.

Being an engineer is no panacea. If you want to be good and get paid well, you should plan on busting your butt until well past when you can join AARP. But hey, that’s true with just about every profession these days.

College opens a door to engineering and it’s about the only way in. College is where you learn to bust your butt, your first few years working are where you learn what your career is all about. But hey, that’s true with just about every profession these days.

When I was 17 I had the good fortune to play tuba in all the “select” bands and orchestras that were around to me. I looked around and saw a lot of other good tuba players and realized that my passion for math and science would provide a much better lifestyle for my (then future) family, than my passion for music, and that turned out to be true. I passed on going to a big name music performance school and took the Science & Engineering path.

I’ve got about all the engineering degrees, licensures, certifications, etc., that make sense for me to have. However, I’ve been able to balance my passion to play tuba with all the other stuff I do for more than 40 years and it’s worked out fairly well.

Here’s the bottom line – you won’t know what career you really love until you’ve tried to do it for a few years full time. Use school to prepare yourself as best you can for doing something that will allow you to balance financial remuneration with your quality of life (remember that playing the tuba is part of the “quality of life” equation). Re-evaluate at intervals of no more than 5 years and make changes if you are not keeping the balance. Rinse and repeat. If you do a good job with this, then you won’t ever want to retire.

Too much rambling from a maturing Engineer & Tuba Player…

[Lew]

Here are two diametrically opposed perspectives on a college education:

Your undergraduate major is simply not all that important. You are better off learning a little bit about a wide variety of fields (learn what each field is about, how those who work in it think - and what they think about, what tools they use, etc.) You have to pick *something* to "major" in - but don't let that get in the way of your education. Avoid majors that require *all* of your undergraduate time. Avoid like the plague those that claim to prepare you for a "job".

Repeat after me: NO undergraduate degree/major prepares you for ANY specific job. None

I’ve read through this entire conversation and am impressed at the variety of opinions. The diversity of thought is positively refreshing! I may as well toss mine into the maelstrom.

Being an engineer is no panacea. If you want to be good and get paid well, you should plan on busting your butt until well past when you can join AARP. But hey, that’s true with just about every profession these days.

College opens a door to engineering and it’s about the only way in. College is where you learn to bust your butt, your first few years working are where you learn what your career is all about. But hey, that’s true with just about every profession these days.

...

I’ve got about all the engineering degrees, licensures, certifications, etc., that make sense for me to have. However, I’ve been able to balance my passion to play tuba with all the other stuff I do for more than 40 years and it’s worked out fairly well.

Here’s the bottom line – you won’t know what career you really love until you’ve tried to do it for a few years full time. Use school to prepare yourself as best you can for doing something that will allow you to balance financial remuneration with your quality of life (remember that playing the tuba is part of the “quality of life” equation). Re-evaluate at intervals of no more than 5 years and make changes if you are not keeping the balance. Rinse and repeat. If you do a good job with this, then you won’t ever want to retire.

Too much rambling from a maturing Engineer & Tuba Player…

Ken's recommendation would have everyone avoid undergraduate degrees in business or engineering. One disclaimer, I have masters degrees in engineering and business and a Ph.D. in business and currently teach in a college of business in a private university, so my opinions may be biased, but they are also based on more than 30 years of experience in industry and higher education. Before even talking about business, let's look at engineering. It is next to impossible to get a job as an engineer, whether that is electrical, civil, mechanical, metallurgical, industrial/systems, or any of the more specialized fields within these or separate from these without an undergraduate degree in engineering. Even though most engineers don't go into engineering to "prepare for a job," they take these majors because there is something about the nature of the field that fascinates them, these majors DO prepare one for a job. While it is true that all jobs require some form of on the job training, companies will NOT hire someone to design electrical circuits without an electrical engineering degree. My first job out of engineering school with a degree in industrial engineering was as a manufacturing engineer. I had to learn about manufacturing processes related to integrated circuits on the job, but I already knew, and was expected to know how to develop quality control charts to measure key manufacturing metrics. You could NOT be hired into the job I had without a degree in engineering or applied math. They would never hire a philosophy major and expect to train them on the basic skills needed to perform that job.

That was over 30 years ago. If anything employers today are pickier when it comes to hiring. There used to be companies more willing to hire someone with just about any college degree expecting to teach them everything they needed to know on the job, but not for every position. Even then companies did NOT hire just anyone to be an accountant. They expected someone with an accounting degree. Today their expectations are even more specific. If companies have to choose between someone with a generalized business undergrad degree and someone with a degree in history, in the vast majority of cases they will hire the business grad. There are very few positions today where a company will hire someone with any degree and expect to train them on everything they need to know. I would however agree that no college degree prepares one for a job completely, but degrees ca. and do provide students with skills and knowledge that allows them to be more likely to be hired for certain jobs and to be able to perform many of the duties of those jobs

I do agree with Ken that an undergraduate degree in "business administration" is not very useful. While those students do get exposure to useful business topics like marketing, accounting, management, finance, and even information systems, their exposure is too generalized to make them as effective in the more specialized roles for which most companies hire business graduates today. However, if an advertising company is hiring an account executive, they are much more likely to go with a marketing major than any other degree. This is because a program in marketing does teach useful skills that would have to be taught on the job, or in many cases wouldn't be learned at all, if those students hadn't completed that education so that company gets an employee that can be productive that much sooner. Accounting and finance are even more specialized and companies have even greater expectations of graduates in those fields. As I said, you don't hire a history major to be an accountant.

Kens comment that:

When properly motivated, and provided with the right training program, anyone (with the basic aptitude) can pick up all the job-related skills that anyone learns in college...in 3-6 months, tops.

is just NOT true. Even community college programs, which are primarily job skill based, take two years for many disciplines. You might be able to learn the basic skills that you need in 6 months of 40 hour weeks, but you would still only have a surface knowledge of many areas. In order to get a CPA you are required to have more education that that before you can even take the test.

In an ideal world I agree with Ken, that an undergraduate degree should not be job training. Most students do not know what they want to do with their lives when they enter college and to suggest that what they choose to study at age 18 should determine what they do with the rest of their lives is unrealistic and unfair. Unfortunately, what one chooses to major in as an undergraduate does have some impact on at least the start on one's career. No matter what someone chooses to major in, it should be something about which they have some passion, or they will not do well in it, or even finish the degree.

There are plenty of degrees that are not about job training, but it is either elitist or naive to say that no undergraduate degree prepares one for a career. If all undergraduate degrees were the same that statement might be true, but they clearly are not. There are undergraduate degrees in nursing, physician's assistant, physical therapy, accounting, engineering, and many more, which ARE specifically designed to give someone job skills. The reason that these are four year degree programs is that they provide a broader based education than just job skills. An elitist might say that those don't count because they aren't really college degrees. Such people claim that a "real" college degree is one that provides a broad based education in how to think and reason, and that any skills picked up along the way are incidental. They say that degrees such as the ones I mentioned are a waste of time because you can learn everything you need in these fields in community colleges or other job training programs. I would say that there is room for a variety of types of undergraduate degrees and these are perfectly valid programs. Of course there have to be standards that differentiate a bachelor's degree from an associates, but that doesn't mean that there can't be overlap in content between those programs.

One can debate the value of a degree from one of the many "for profit" colleges and universities that you see advertising all the time these days. There are many positions for which one doesn't need and probably shouldn't get a college degree and these schools in particular seem to be trying to convince people that they should get a degree in those fields anyway. That is a whole different debate. That doesn't change the fact that there are many different types of valuable undergrad degrees.

So, don't view an undergraduate degree as destiny. There are many degrees that are NOT focused on preparing for a specific job, and music may be considered one of those. There are other degrees without which there are certain jobs for which you just won't be competitive. If one of those fields interests you by all means go in that direction. No matter what one chooses as an undergraduate degree it doesn't have to determine the course of their working life. There are always opportunities to change a career path and it is important to recognize when and if it is time for a change rather than stick with a choice made when you were very young and be miserable doing it.

[tbn.al]

The trombone player in my quintet, who happens to have a masters in engineering and a dozen patents in his name, has a quote that I love. "I am fortunate to have a career that feeds my family well, but music feeds my soul!" Find a way to feed your family and a way to feed your soul. Some folks can do both with one activity, but not me. I am so thankful for the joy my degrees in music have provided, but they never fed me very well.

[Lew]

... Though a handful seem to be a bit impressed that I put my undergraduate degree behind me in 3-1/2 years (very light load last semester) with many more credit hours than required and designated "summa cum laude", I'm thoroughly convinced (as what I did was not difficult at all) that my '70's-vintage degree was far easier to earn than a '60's degree or a '50's or '40's degree at the same university or at other pre-1970's universities. I'm just as certain that a 00's and 10's undergraduate degrees are even easier to obtain. ...

This reminds me of an experience I had when I finished my MBA. I was working full time and after two years of work decided to go back and get a part time MBA in the early 80s. When I finished I met with the head of the program for an interview they did with all graduates and was asked what I would change about the program. My comment was that I thought that the courses included too much overlap and that they needed to rely more on the prerequisites. In my opinion if you are going to require a course to be taken before taking another one, then one should assume knowledge of that prior course in the subsequent one. The dean's comment was that, sure that's OK for you, look at your grades, but if we did that too many students wouldn't be able to complete the program. In other words, we have to dumb it down so that we can get the revenue from as many potential students as possible. And this was in a program that is consistently listed among the top 5 part time MBA programs in the country. (Similar to you I finished most of my undergrad degree in 3 1/2 years. I did have two courses left in the second half of my senior year, but filled the rest of my schedule with graduate courses so I was able to get a Master's degree in less than a year.)

If this happened in the 80s, I'm sure that it is worse now. I just finished the semester and I had a number of students complain that I was ruining their GPA. I told them that they had a wide variety of opportunities to demonstrate their mastery of the material and that I was confident that their grades represented a fair assessment of their performance (arrogant ain't I?). I did have 3 students out of 20 in that class who got A's, so that seems like a reasonable ratio to me. Apparently though that is not the norm for my peers in this college. To me a C means average performance. I think that most students today expect an A for average performance.

One other point you make is also important. A college degree is no longer something for a small minority to get to prepare for a small subset of jobs in this economy. There seems to be an expectation that the majority of people will get college degrees these days. There are certainly many jobs for which a college degree is not necessary, or even desirable, yet today's youth seem to be less interested in doing those sorts of jobs. Still, there are and will continue to be a larger percentage of jobs in a knowledge economy that require a higher level of education. I just don't think that there are as many of those as the number of students in college represent.

[swillafew]

In the late 70's a visiting lecturer came over from the University of MN. He had an incredible teaching career, it was like Superman. He assured us that modern students' work was not much, that high school graduates before WWII were as a group much stronger students, albeit a much smaller pool. If anybody was qualified to say so, it was him.

Since the 70's I think the problem is picking up steam.

As for the 3 1/2 year thing, any music student with lessons and ensembles was accumulating credits faster than others (at Macalester College, anyway).

[Biggs]

I'm just as certain that a 00's and 10's undergraduate degrees are even easier to obtain.

If it's so easy, why haven't you done it? I'm sure it would be a piece of cake, given how readily you handled the task under the tougher, 1970s-level requirements.

[sloan]

Perhaps you could pursue personal maturity?

[SRanney]

I'm just as certain that a 00's and 10's undergraduate degrees are even easier to obtain.

Bingo.

Grades at universities all across the nation at all levels (e.g., state schools up to the Ivy League) have been increasing rapidly. Don't believe me? Visit (and evaluate) this website: GradeInflation.com.

At the very bottom of the page, the author has a collection of the GPAs from several universities and colleges. See if your alma mater is included and click to see how fast the GPA at your school has been rising.

Steven

[SRanney]

I was a music student at a PAC-10 university with an excellent professor who suggested (required?) that his tuba students be music education majors. Though I felt like I was good enough to be a performance major and win an audition after graduation, I took his advice and used music ed. as a "fall back" degree option. After transferring (PAC-10 to Big 10) to follow this professor, I eventually left school with about 30 credits to go before finishing my music education degree/certificate.

Years later, when I decided to go back to school, my playing skills had lapsed to the point at which I didn't think I could be as successful as a musician, so I chose to go in a completely different direction (i.e., Biology). While I could have finished in a few semesters to become a music educator, the last thing I wanted was to be an undedicated band director. Being a band director requires dedication, both to the program and the students, and I didn't think I could do those things. As a result, I chose another passion and have run with it ever since.

In my experience in higher education as both a grad student, a TA, and a tutor, I have met far too many undergraduates (i.e., "fresh outta high school") that shouldn't be in higher education. It's not that they're not smart enough, but those that I've met don't have the desire to be in a university setting nor do they have the maturity to live away from their parents. Most were told (to paraphrase) that the only way you'll get ahead in this world is with a college degree. I believe that--much like the housing bubble--there is an education bubble that will be popping in the near future. Young people with degrees have become so numerous that a university education will eventually become meaningless. At one time, as some here have eluded to, a bachelor's degree set a person apart. Now, however, to stand out among the glut of college graduates flooding the market, a master's degree is required. In some fields, a PhD is required to stand out amongst those who hold master's degrees.

If your goal is to make music, make music! As bloke, tbn.al, and others have pointed out on several occasions, a performance or music education degree isn't necessary to play and be happy. If your goal is to make money, don't be a music major. A college degree isn't required for happiness nor is a music degree required to be a musician. If you're interested in making money, I'd suggest an apprenticeship in a skilled trade: inside electrical, pipe-fitting, plumbing, construction, or a whole bunch of others. An apprenticeship provides paid job training and would allow you to learn a marketable skill that will likely always be in demand, thus guaranteeing you a job. While you're working and learning, you can still make music any way you want to. One benefit of an apprenticeship is that many of the journeymen practitioners will be retiring soon, opening up even further a wide open job market.

Don't get me wrong; education is always a good thing. The more intelligent we are, the better off we'll be. However, education and intelligence don't always have to come from a university setting. Learn as much as you can throughout your life and you'll be better off.

Steven

[sloan]

Trying to steer the ship (sort-of) back on topic (following Steven's prompting), I believe I would rather see a high school have band as a "club" (run by a math teacher who play[ed] the clarinet, etc.) than a "class" run by a disgruntled "professional" band director.

ahem... the TOPIC was "What to do if I get a degree in music?" I don't much see what this has to do with your preferences on high school bands.

[sloan]

What an impoverished view of the value of an education with an emphasis on music.

[PMeuph]

- none of the above...Join the circus (after they go to Clown College and wear a gown/mortarboard).

Just to bring this back into perspective, circuses do hire musicians...

https://cirquedusoleil.taleo.net/career ... detail.ftl" target="_blank

[Todd S. Malicoate]

For yet another anecdote...

I have an undergraduate degree in "tuba performance" and a masters degree in "wind band conducting."

I teach jazz and play a lot of piano for a living along with a part-time job selling auto parts to pay the bills.

[PMeuph]

..... We will continue to see the laws become stiffer and stiffer about dropping out of school. Less drop outs, more inclusion, and changing eductaion laws will continue to change the educational landscape.

I think this is a serious problem. Personally most of what is learned after grade 9 is superfluous if you want to work in a mine, or on a farm or in the construction industry. But still you end up with a whole bunch of angst-filled 15-18 yrs-old teens who are being told they need a Grade 12 to succeed in life. In reality some of these kids should be out working, getting apprenticeships figuring out through "real-life" experience what is right for them, not through being forced to cram subjects they consider useless. Then the school system could accommodate them further on, if they realize school is actually right for them.

(When I was reading Brian Bowman's biography a couple months ago, one thing I found fascinating was that he took a year or two off to go teach band in Mexico after his second year of university. I find that this real life experience is surely more beneficial and motivating than several years worth of classes.)

[Alex C]

- none of the above...Join the circus (after they go to Clown College and wear a gown/mortarboard).

Just to bring this back into perspective, circuses do hire musicians...

https://cirquedusoleil.taleo.net/career ... detail.ftl" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

I notice the 'job' is now filled. How many tuba/euphonium players has Cirque hired in the last twenty five years? How many people on this board have even played in a circus band (much less Cirque)? Half a dozen? Circus band is not a better prospect for a music graduate than symphony orchestra.

The easy days are over for brass musicians. If you want to perform for a living, make your own performance vehicle, make your own job. If you're not that interested, do something else.

When I taught the "How to be a band director in eleven easy weeks" class, I told college juniors that if they could close their eyes and picture themselves doing anything else for a living, they should do that. If you can't picture anything else, you'll find a way to make it in music.

I am most proud of Mark Shelton, a former student who I didn't ruin even though he's a "drummer." I take no credit for his successes, only that I didn't damage him. Friend him on FB if you want to encourage live music.
http://www.marksheltonmusic.com/
http://www.facebook.com/MarkSheltonPerc

[happyroman]

If you are going to make a career out of tuba performance, I believe that you must be 100% dedicated to that goal and put all of your musical efforts in that direction. Do not get a degree in Education to have something "to fall back on." First, it will distract you from your main goal. Second, since your heart will not be in it, you will not do as well in school as you will need to in order to have a good shot at a successful career as an educator.

Put your single minded efforts into a performance career. If it doesn't work out, you will have the satisfaction that you gave it your best shot. Then, you can always go back for a degree in another, possibly different, field.

Personally, once I determined that a position in a symphony orchestra was not going to happen for me, I went back to school and got a degree in Civil Engineering. I worked 30-40 hours a week while taking a full load of classes and racked up large loans, but received my bachelors degree in four years and have been earning much more than I ever could have as a tuba player.

[tbn.al]

The value of my music education to my quality of life is beyond measure. The fact that I do not earn my livelyhood from music lessens that value not at all. YMMV.

[sloan]

If only he had gotten a degree IN MUSIC, he might have amounted to something.

But...I'm confused - this seems to be the answer to the question "What to do if I get a degree in Technology Management?".
The OP asked a slightly different question.

Look at me - I got a degree in Applied Mathematics, and have never worked a day in my life in that field (or any other, for that matter).

Sylvester Sample (primo jazz bassist) was playing all of the top-drawer jazz gigs in Memphis when (he and) I w(ere) attending the same school, and when Memphis was alive with jazz venues.

He didn't spend any time in the music building except to rehearse/perform/tour with the "A" jazz band during the pinnacle of Memphis State's jazz program (under Tom Ferguson).

Check out his courses of study: http://www.facebook.com/sylvester.sample

and his notable cred's: http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en#sclie ... 00&bih=730

and this appears on his online biography:

Day Job:
Technical Services Manager with a major truck and engine manufacturer

[Paul Tkachenko]

Hi guys,

Just to chip in and say I used to play tuba with a circus (Roncalli, in Germany). I'd be surprised if I didn't earn more than your average guy in a symphony orchestra. This was all BEFORE getting a music degree.

Just submitted my PhD and would still consider a job playing in a good circus. In fact, I've just been in discussion with a Cirque du Soleil style show in Japan - I probably won't do it because of the familly, but the money looks to be very good indeed. Of course I wouldn't just be playing the tuba - I would suggest that any musician needs to play other instruments if you want to make a good living.

After nearly 20 years as a professional musician, I can say there are some amazing circus bands. You have to be able to play a lot of styles. Obviously not all circuses are that top draw, but then again, neither are all orchestras ...

[Paul Tkachenko]

A relative of mine worked for that company as a 'performer' rather than a musician and played lots of big gigs and it was pretty comfortable. He did play sousa, but not very well! My experience is that if you are on the road, you have to invest a bit of your own money in getting a nice caravan etc. It can be quite comfortable.