Why the double bell ?

[oldbandnerd]

Looking at some double bell euphs for sell on Ebay got me wondering to my self about these odd horns. I'm gonna voice my questions here and let the Tubenet jury take over.

1. Why the double bell setup ? The only explaination I've ver heard was to add a extra insturment to smaller groups that didn't have the extra players to player them. Can this be the only reason why ?

2. Have any of them ever been really good horns and who made them? I've only heard them played on the few available YOUTUBE videos,never live. Never heard one that I thought was a really great horn.

3. Who made the very best sounding horns ?

4. Would it poossible to build on today that using modern technology that would play well? I realize there would probaly not be a lot of practical applications for one but it would fun to have it anyway.

Cell Block Seven playing " Mood Indigo" using 3 double belled euphs. The guys are just great !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJYrsdi1 ... re=related" target="_blank

[PMeuph]

Looking at some double bell euphs for sell on Ebay got me wondering to my self about these odd horns. I'm gonna voice my questions here and let the Tubenet jury take over.

1. Why the double bell setup ? The only explaination I've ver heard was to add a extra insturment to smaller groups that didn't have the extra players to player them. Can this be the only reason why ?

I have heard that one of the other reasons was to facilitate the blend with a trombone section. Given that lots of music has tutti sections with T-bones and Euphs in unison, that makes some sense.

2. Have any of them ever been really good horns and who made them? I've only heard them played on the few available YOUTUBE videos,never live. Never heard one that I thought was a really great horn.

On David Werden's forum, there is a members only section that allows you to download, If I recall correctly there is a recording of the carnival of venice that is much a much better recording than this youtube video.
http://ww.tubaeuph.com/music-videos/eup ... d%20Werden" target="_blank

4. Would it poossible to build on today that using modern technology that would play well? I realize there would probaly not be a lot of practical applications for one but it would fun to have it anyway.

A couple years ago, there was a webpage up by some company in michigan that had built a double bell euphonium from a Willson 2975 and a 9 inch bass trombone bell. I can't find it anymore but I think they were called MMIS. The project they tried seemed very cool but I couldn't imagine it costing less than 10k, making it quite impractical for most people.

[b.williams]

1. They are odd to us, but not to those who came before us. The smaller bell could be used to achieve a different sound than the larger bell. This enabled the player to sound like a trombone or a euphonium, thus eliminating the need for two different horns. Additionally, the player could use the two sounds to emphasize the duet effect of certain solos such as the Carnival of Venice.

2. Many different companies made double bell euphoniums. They came with four and five valves. Have you seen/heard this?
http://www.dwerden.com/music-videos/eup ... cfm?vid=98" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

[windshieldbug]

Why the double bell setup ? The only explanation I've ever heard was to add a extra inst[ru]ment to smaller groups that didn't have the extra players to play[] them. Can this be the only reason why ?

I think that is close to the explanation. In the late 19th and early 20th century (1800s-1900s) the only music that one heard in Upsluck, Iowa was either by a piano or the town band. In fact, there was so much call for the town band that not everyone could make every engagement. If Clem on altohorn was off tending the Widow Feeny's new calf, you could just have a cornet player play his part. But if a trombonist was out, who the heck else knew how to play a slip-horn reasonably well? The job covering the part SHOULD go to your baritone player, since the mouthpiece sizes were the same, but again, the slide was a real deal-breaker. You could, of course, use a valve trombone, but who's responsibility was it to pay for the darn thing and lug it around just in case you might need it?

Enter the double-belled euphonium. Now you always had it with you and the right person was playing it. Besides, they look cool. One night I was playing Carnival of Venice and explained to the audience that the DB euphoniumists were the rock stars of their generation, and that ladies would swoon and throw articles of clothing at them. A woman then rushed forward and threw her gym socks at me. You can't make this stuff up.

Since you have them around, they can also add weight to trombone sections, perhaps even write something up if the tenor horns are weak. And since they are available, nearly anyone can play an euphonium solo, but how many people can play a double-bell euphonium solo? Never mind that there wasn't much music written for them specifically, where is all the music for the echo cornets that seem to have survived?

Have any of them ever been really good horns and who made them?

I have a 5 valve Conn double-bell baritone that was a presentation horn to Simone Mantia. No slide kickers, but the horn really rocks. All of the horns that you're talking about were built before the present generation of baritone-voiced instruments, but remember, a 4-valve comp horn is still simply just a double instrument and still needs length coaxing. No reason why you couldn't use all of the latter 19th-century advances and build one, though.

[Dan Schultz]

I've had a dozen or so DB euphs and none of them have been particularly great horns. It seems that back in the day... many were played by women and mainly for home entertainment.... sort of like the 'organ in the parlor' thing.

All the smaller bell and straight bore does is modify the timber from that of a euphonium to that of a trombone.

[David Richoux]

I have a few DBEs, they are fun to play, a chore to explain to the audience, but the strangest one I have ever played (don't own) is shown here.

[DonShirer]

I had the loan of a DB Conn Euph in high school for one year (long ago), but never found a band piece that used its capabilities. I always thought that it was most useful as a neat trick for soloists to wow their audience with. I have never seen a figure for the number of DB's actually made, but suspect that it was not very large (anybody know?). You'd think that if it solved a problem that occurred often in bands (missing trombonists?) there would be more of them around.

[OldsRecording]

I remember playing an old arrangement of Von Suppe's Light Cavalry Overture and at one point, the baritone part was actually marked 'Trombone Bell'. That's the only time I've ever seen that kind of thing notated.

[Rick F]

I remember playing an old arrangement of Von Suppe's Light Cavalry Overture and at one point, the baritone part was actually marked 'Trombone Bell'. That's the only time I've ever seen that kind of thing notated.

Yep, I've seen that marking as well. We had a eupher in our section some years ago who had a DB and asked to play the smaller bell where it was marked on "Light Cavalry". After hearing it that way once, we said, "never mind" . He hardly ever used the smaller (T-bone) bell and had it turned toward his larger bell.

[rodgeman]

My high school teacher had one and I played it. It was cool. He told me that they were used in circus bands to help the trombones on the faster pieces.

[kingdoublebell]

I have a 1926-30 King double bell bell front I acquired in January 2011. December 9th,2011 I acquired a 1925 King double bell upright. So far both are fun to play. I have toyed around in various pieces in the band I play in and found it useful to use the little bell when playing the grandioso part of Sousa's "Stars and Stripes Forever", the first time, in support of the piccolo solo. It kinda sounds like a muffled main bell. Adds a nice effect. Sometimes I 'll play bassoon que note parts.
It's just fun to play.
Would'nt it be cool if a company came out with a four and five valve models!! They would most likely be limited edition horns and be fairly expensive, but what fun !!!!!

[OldHorn]

It gives you somewhere to carry your music!

[J.c. Sherman]

My first pro euph was a 1936 5 valve Conn Double Bell (I added a 6th flat whole tone valve). It was (and is) exquisite. I've never played a better instrument, but there're certainly other great modern ones, of course; but this axe was wonderful.

I'm working on a King Double Bell right now, converted from an upright front valve instrument of more recent build. I'm certain it'll be a good instrument, but not modern in the way I think was implied in the OP.

MMIS's instrument was brilliant, but perhaps over-reaching in trying to divide the two voices distinctly; with such a large bore and bell, you ended up with a very large bore trombone... next to a Wilson FA compensating Euph. They also put a short slide for glissandi on it as well. Again, brilliant, but missing the true division of timbres somewhat, and the difference in intonation which would occur with the compensating setup would be monstrous.

I used the second bell a couple times for the "baritone" solo in Holst's 1st Suite. Used it for comic effect, and played around with it in church services. Mostly, it added a hell of a lot of weight, and too much discussion time not spent warming up. I sold it for my current instrument.

For some makers, the double bell was their top professional instrument. But I've never heard of the small bell (which has been described in various ways) playing particularly well, especially with a good, characteristic euphonium mouthpiece.

Converting a 4v compensating instrument (with their conical bore) to a double bell would be frightfully expensive, and I wouldn't want to do it... doomed to failure. But I happily add a bell from time to time. On a FA American euph, it's not a huge expense if you can get parts from other instruments to use to fabricate it. From scratch, you’ll be paying me into the next century.

J.c.S.

[pgym]

But I happily add a bell from time to time. On a FA American euph, it's not a huge expense if you can get parts from other instruments to use to fabricate it.

What would be a ballpark figure for adding a second bell and plumbing to a King 2268?