Bass trombone Vs. Tuba

[tubagod94]

Hello!
I have wanted to learn bass trombone for some time now, and had a couple questions for you guys!
I played trombone so I do have a feel for slides and tuning and all of that so I have that covered.

What is the difference between bass trombone and tuba?

Should I use a small tuba mouthpiece or a large trombone mouthpiece? I currently have Giddings and Webster Bayomo and love it!
Would it be beneficial to practice buzzing on a trombone mouthpiece?

Happy New Year!

Nick.

[b.williams]

Should I use a small tuba mouthpiece or a large trombone mouthpiece? I currently have Giddings and Webster Bayomo and love it!

I use a large trombone mouthpiece (Schilke 60) on bass trombone. FWIW, I tried using a Dennis Wick 1 (small shank) tuba mouthpiece on bass trombone, but it didn't work very well.

[Donn]

I'm not sure what the difference is between bass trombone and tuba - is that a trick question? "Bass trombone" is a pretty well defined object - the dimensions and other mechanical properties of bass trombones don't really have a wide range of variation since our grandfathers' days, so it's always clear what is and is not a bass trombone - but conversely as a concept it seems kind of open to question. Is it a large bore tenor trombone, 3rd/4th trombone in the choir? Is it a contrabass instrument that is largely useful in its valve/pedal range below the bass clef? Don't ask me. We have one or more professional bass trombone players here who may be along shortly to clear this up.

For mouthpieces, in my opinion, the Kelly 1 1/2G is really a good mouthpiece, and it's economical and has some other practical virtues. Green is best. Bass trombones take "large shank" trombone mouthpieces, which is similar to the rare small shank Eb tuba mouthpiece but not identical - the trombone shank is actually larger, so a small shank tuba mouthpiece wouldn't be a solid fit. (And it would usually be too big and hard to play in tune etc.) In the unfortunate event that you elect to start with a tuba size bass trombone mouthpiece, they can be found, but that "1.5" size seems to have become more or less the classic bass trombone mouthpiece and would be the obvious choice, whether the Bach original or a clone like the Kelly.

[glangfur]

Donn is right that the 1-1/2G size is the classic place to start. 2G is about the smallest practical bass trombone mouthpiece, but 1-1/2G is what people usually start with.

For mouthpieces, in my opinion, the Kelly 1 1/2G is really a good mouthpiece, and it's economical and has some other practical virtues. Green is best.

(trombone forum joke)

Another inexpensive option is the FAXX 1-1/2G, a traditional metal mouthpiece that is cheaper than a Bach and a very good copy of an older example. There's a whole cult around the Mt. Vernon-era Bach 1-1/2Gs, which are wildly different from the modern ones, and apparently the FAXX is closer to the old ones than the new ones.

You might find that a 1-1/2G size from anybody is uncomfortable for you to try to cram your tuba-trained lips into. There are significantly larger mouthpieces that are very good and will still allow you to make a characteristic trombone sound, but the Kelly and FAXX are cheap enough that you might as well start there. If you really like G&W, they make a line of very, very good bass trombone mouthpieces. Those will cost you.

Now, assuming you've got a reasonable mouthpiece and a reasonable bass trombone, be prepared to play a lot of long tones. Bass trombone does not help you in the low range the way tuba does, and you might be surprised to find that you don't have as good a low range as you think you should. Don't panic and stick a tuba mouthpiece in there...work with a teacher and learn to play low on bass trombone with its own mouthpiece, and you will find that the focus you gain from that work will help the pitch center and efficiency of your low register on tuba.

Have fun!

[tubajazzo]

the base pitch of a Bb tuba is one octave lower than a Bass trombone. The bass trombone has the same pitch as the tenor bone, only with much bigger bore and additional valves. It can go down into tuba range in the hands of a good player, as well as the tuba can go up into trombone range. But the sound concept is different. The ergonomics of bass trombones are kind of a desaster...just to tell you. Give it a try. But you better use the original bass bone mouthpieces to get the sound centered.

[PMeuph]

What is the difference between bass trombone and tuba?

The best piece of advice I can give you is to visit Douglas Yeo's webpage. There are more than enough articles, lists of repertoire, and musical excerpts to keep you busy for hours.

http://yeodoug.com/" target="_blank" target="_blank

Should I use a small tuba mouthpiece or a large trombone mouthpiece? I currently have Giddings and Webster Bayomo and love it!
Would it be beneficial to practice buzzing on a trombone mouthpiece?

I would suggest you try the "standard" bass trombone mouthpieces ( a Bach 1.5 and either a Schilke 59 or 60). Both are usually available used or can be borrowed just to try them out and get a feel for them. A lot of other bass trombone mouthpieces have similar properties as the above 2.

Personally I use the Yamaha Doug Yeo replica.

[tubagod94]

Thanks for all the good information. I like the sound of a bass trombone so much. I think I will start with a Bach or something along those lines then see where it goes from there. Can any of you compare the triggers on a bass trombone to a BBb tuba with the fourth valve? I know about all about theory, but the concept of the triggers are just a little fuzzy.

Thank You

Nick.

[glangfur]

The thumb valve lowers a fourth from the open horn, like the 4th valve on a tuba. And because it adds so much tubing, as you extend the slide (like adding more valves), you quickly get to a point where the position from the octave above needs to be adjusted out (like pulling valve slides or using different fingerings). You only have 6 slide positions on the F valve rather than the 7 on the open horn.

The second valve, usually operated by the middle finger, can be tuned a number of different ways. The most common one now adds a minor third, so that the two valves together in first position is a D. Now you only have 5 positions on the slide.

There are a few good books available to help negotiate the various tuning options and possibilities available. One of the best is this: http://www.hickeys.com/products/002/sku02428.htm" target="_blank
He has sections for most of the tunings you find. Once you've gotten an instrument and figured out which tuning it uses, he has etudes to guide you through the possible valve combinations.

[Donn]

It can go down into tuba range in the hands of a good player, as well as the tuba can go up into trombone range.

How hard this may be, apparently varies from one individual to another. I started with the tuba, maybe that's why I found it easier to play in the tuba range in the beginning than the trombone range. Interesting experiment comparing the two instruments: play the same note on both, for a listener who is not a low brass player but may be a reasonably competent musician. Something below the bass clef. In my experience, the listener will hear a lower octave coming from the tuba. So ... hope it's easy to play down there, because you won't get much credit for it anyway.

Comment about ergonomic disaster is too true. Too many good players have had to give it up.

[ghmerrill]

When I had my bass trombone (a Holton TR181, which is a large bore double valve horn with a 10 1/2" bell), I generally used a Schilke 60. Pay attention to the comments about the ergonomics and see if you can get an instrument that fits you as best you can. If you have small hands, then with a big bass trombone you're in a bit of trouble. And I had a ring soldered under the mouthpiece receiver (and to the slide brace) to help in holding the horn. Otherwise it was an uncomfortable stretch for me with the left hand. Of course, that didn't help the overall balance of the horn.

[PMeuph]

I'll start by saying that I'm a euphonium player who doubles on bass trombone.

The set-up I appreciate the most is independent valves on the bass trombone.

http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/fa ... alves.html" target="_blank

Some others like dependant valves for a variety of reasons. For me, being accustomed to using valves and "liping" the pitches in tune makes the second valve quite usable to play Gb and Db (along with many other alternates and possibilities)

This technique is advocated and expanded by Blair Bollinger in this book.
http://www.hickeys.com/products/064/sku64826.htm" target="_blank

[Donn]

... and others like one single valve only.

Granted, serious players are apt to play mainly 2-valvers, even if they speak fondly of the Conn 72H or whatever in the closet (so those old trombones are weirdly expensive even though no one plays them.) But ... note above remarks about ergonomics. If you can manage with only one valve, you lighten the load a lot and eliminate some awkward finger tricks, and it might make a big difference. Mine is very light, and it works for B below the staff, albeit just barely. I lack the intelligence required to combine 2 valves and a slide anyway.

On the tuba's 4th valve, and the different slide positions with and without the valve: you could say, I think, that a bass trombone with the F valve engaged is effectively an F bass trombone, while the same is not true of valved instruments - a euphonium with the F valve down isn't an F tuba at all. This is mainly because the trombone is in principle a cylindrical instrument, compared to the conical tuba family, but it helps that the slide allows the player to simply and effectively adjust to the extended length, where the tuba player has to experiment with combinations of fingerings, lipping, and slide pulls that make it about as complicated down there as playing the bassoon.

[Lingon]

...What is the difference between bass trombone and tuba?...

The big difference seems to be that the trombone is mostly cylindrical while the tuba is conical and most trombones are shorter than the typical (bass or contrabass) tuba...

...Should I use a small tuba mouthpiece or a large trombone mouthpiece? I currently have Giddings and Webster Bayomo and love it!
Would it be beneficial to practice buzzing on a trombone mouthpiece?...

I would advice against tuba mouthpieces on a trombone. It is possible to get some sounds out of the trombone but if you are serious about the trombone and would like it to sound as a trombone you should absolutely use a trombone mouthpiece.

A good size to start out with could be Bach 1.5G or 2G or something in the same size for example Schilke 58 or 59, Wick 1AL or 2AL. A really good budget alternative is the Faxx 1.5G, which is a copy of a Bach 1.5G, or a Kelly 1.5G if you like plastic pieces. Then when you have played and practiced for some time, half a year or more, then you can start up the mouthpiece race. My drawer is not possible to close any more. Too many mouthpieces. But I always return to my first Schilke 58 which I use most of the time in the orchestra.

Naturally it is not possible to say another thing than it might be practical to start out with a somewhere in the middle size and play for a relatively long period before changing to anything else. It is better to get the feel for it before starting constantly changing the conditions...

You also have to approach the bass trombone a bit different than a tuba because it is cylindrical and the bore also a bit tighter. A mistake that could happen is that you try to play it the same way as the tuba. No good. It is another instrument and you should be aware of that. If you think about how you would like it to sound then you could start trying to have it sound that way. But realize that you would play another instrument. Sorry to repeat, but that is essential.

I have doubled on tenor and bass trombone for years and it works well as long as I think and play them as different instruments. I do not use the same mouthpiece or rim for the different sizes trombones and think that it is better to find mouthpieces that works together with the instrument/s and your face to make a whole working system.

For me I started fiddling around with tuba some time ago and did start out with a Bach 22 slowly going over to a Yamaha 67C4. They works for me now, but may be exchanged later on, or not. I have a tuba mouthpiece drawer too but have not started digging around in it (yet). But the main point is that the tuba is different to the bass trombone and has to be approached in a different way I think without knowing much about how to really play a tuba other than it is a lot of fun... However, the tuba playing have made my breathing work better when playing trombone and also the efficiency of the buzz seems to have improved at least for my trombone playing. There is one more detail that could have some influence and it is that at the same time I started out with the tuba I also found an old alto horn in Eb that I do some warmups on, before going to the larger stuff. I think that has also improved and concentrated my embouchure a bit. But that for now is only speculations. The main point is, approach the different instruments as different instruments.

Good luck, and remember that the most important is to have fun with what you are doing.

[Lingon]

...Can any of you compare the triggers on a bass trombone to a BBb tuba with the fourth valve? I know about all about theory, but the concept of the triggers are just a little fuzzy...

I just read the rest of the thread and realized that the most essential is already written. However about triggers and ergonomics. A single valve bass trombone is light and easy to hold and works in most situations. George Roberts did use single valve instruments for all his career. Dual valve instruments are useful when needed, but their weight is noticeably higher and it is essential to have the valve paddles adjusted so if fits your hand, else it would be awkward or even dangerous for your left hand and arm. I have small hands and have found a Jinbao... instrument that works excellently for me It seems to be made for small chinese hands and works perfect. My other instruments are more or less modified to fit me and therefore works too.
So, if you just is starting out and would like to get the feel of a bass trombone, why not try to find a good used old instrument with just one valve, maybe you could even borrow or rent from somewhere? Or if you have decided on a dual valver then you have to make the decision if you want it to be with independent, in line valves usually tuned to F and Gb or dependent, side by side, usually tuned to F and D. And if you want the triggers to be operated by only the thumb or by thumb and middle finger. If you can, try to find a place with different instruments and get your hands on them to get a feeling for what would be nice to hold and use for a couple of hours every time you play...

[Lingon]

What is the difference between bass trombone and tuba?

' gotta admit, it beats "lacquer vs. silver" or "BBb vs. CC".

Hehe, well the question about lacquer vs silver or even raw brass or copper or gold brass or.... is constantly thought of about trombones...Thankfully the Bb vs C we don't have but the B/F/D or B/F/Gb/D or B/F/G/Eb is always present...

[trnewcomb]

I'm a euphoniumist who doubles on bass trombone and also plays a fair amount of tuba. All the advice here is good - the bass trombone is not a tuba and it is a different beast from a tenor as well. I use a Marcinkiewitz 1-1/2 and I really like it but the Bachs are also an excellent choice. My horn of choice is actually the Yamaha 613G from the early 1990s - a very responsive instrument. But I agree that balance is an issue with a bass bone - they can be tiring on long gigs if you're not used to them. I also like independent rotors - I play mostly big-band jazz and I find the dependent-trigger horns to be too restricting.

I'd say play as many horns as you can before you choose one - each one is different. Good luck!

[Donn]

]I use a Marcinkiewitz 1-1/2 and I really like it but the Bachs are also an excellent choice.

Do you know if that used to be the Marcinkiewicz "George Roberts"? Is there any obvious difference from a Bach - size, interior shape, etc? Just curious. I have the EBT2 "Phil Teele", and it has an unusual shape with a slight interior shoulder. Marcinkiewicz is very good about publishing mouthpiece data, but it's hard to compare anyway because everyone doesn't seem to measure diameters the same way, and anyway there's no useful way to show shapes as numbers in a chart.

[Lingon]

...I use a Marcinkiewitz 1-1/2...

...Do you know if that used to be the Marcinkiewicz "George Roberts"?...

Marcink 'George Roberts' and 1.5G are different models. The Roberts I have tested were slightly smaller than the 1.5G and very playable especially for me that not like too large pieces. The 1.5G is approximately similar to a Bach 1.5G even if if is a bit problematic to do a direct compair because all Bachs are not made equal. Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces are of course excellent, and very well made, if you find a model that suits you.

[ken k]

you will find that bass bone takes a lot more air than the tuba. For example if you try to play the same phrase on a bass bone vs. a tuba you will find that you most likely will not be able to play as long a phrase on the bassbone as you can on a tuba.

at least this has been my experience. bass bones just suck the air right out of you.

k

[Lingon]

...you will find that bass bone takes a lot more air than the tuba...
...at least this has been my experience. bass bones just suck the air right out of you...

That is interesting. I have also learnt that, after beginning to play around with a tuba. Already from start I was able to play longer phrases on the tuba than on the bass trombone. I have heard that from other doublers before but did not really think it could be so. Also, the tuba players I have talked with did not think that could be true. So we learn as long as we try new things.