CLR as a valve cleaner?

[Leland]

I was told this bit of info today from a junior Marine who had a previous life as a machinist --

CLR supposedly works very well as a piston cleaner. Not only does it remove scaling, but it actually contains some Teflon, which will fill the scratches & micro-pits in the piston and its casing.

Is this true?

[jaredsan]

I can't say I know...

but do you really want that poison in something you blow into?

[Tom]

I'm fairly certain that there was a thread on this in the past and that the consensus was that CLR was not a good thing to be exposing your instrument to.

CLR is corrosive as it is basically an "over-the-counter" acid.

See http://www.jelmar.com/CLRproducts.asp for more information. You can even get the Material Safety Data Sheet http://www.jelmar.com/msds.asp if you're interested in knowing more.

From their website:

the acids in CLR will react with the metal

Also from their website:

Do not use CLR on wood, clothing, wallpaper, carpeting, marble, terrazzo, natural stone, colored grout, painted or metallic glazed surfaces, plastic laminates, Formica or aluminum.

Perhaps lacquer could be considered a "metallic glazed surface."

I sure wouldn't put it in my tuba.

[Captain Sousie]

There is no mention of teflon in any of their literature.

[Leland]

That's what I was thinking -- the Teflon bit was news to me.

Hmm...

[Gongadin]

Cyras....you're supposed to clean EVERY WEEK??
Geez....no wonder my wife is about to leave me!

Hey...if you can't use CLR on your tuba, why is it okay to use it in your coffee maker, according to the CLR ads??

[oldbandnerd]

I am a sales rep for a very large chemical company . I sell chemicals to institutional kitchens ie...resturants,hospitals,schools,nursing homes. I know what CLR is. It is weaker version of delimer. You throw some this stuff in commercial dish machines to remove lime scale. CLR is basically a weak acid with some surfactants in it . Great stuff to remove soap scum,hard water stains and rust stains. But do you really want to pour it down your $6k horn ? I suppose if your horn was full of a lot of crap it would clean it out very nicley. Also, it has no teflon in it . Some other bathroom cleaners do have teflon. It is supposed to keep soap scum,body oils and dirt from sticking to your bathtub. Sounds better then it actually is. One hell of a selling gimmick !!!!

[Chuck(G)]

CLR is basically sulfamic and citric acids. While it won't hurt the interior of your horn, it could discolor brass on the exterior, particularly if you've got a few scratches in the lacquer.

Warm water and mild detergent should get most of the crud off your pistons (use a test-tube or valve brush). If you've got a lot of scale, soak them in some vinegar for a couple of hours.

I used to use a lot of Lime-away and CLR when cleaning the bathroom (iron stains), but worried about the effect of the stuff on my septic system.

Now I use sodium bisulfite; it works just as well and won't kill my septic critters.

[Lee Stofer]

You COULD use CLR to do your own chem-clean of your instrument, but it is highly discouraged. If you have all of the safety equipment to use a de-limer/de-scaler, and have the experience to use something like that safely, chances are that you are an instrument repair technician.

I didn't know enough about sulfamic acid when I started working in instrument repair, and didn't find out what I needed to know for several months, until I started apprenticing with another technician. I have the permanent hand damage to prove it. Just say NO.

[Rick Denney]

Now I use sodium bisulfite; it works just as well and won't kill my septic critters.

Say, Chuck, is that the same thing as the product called "Iron-Out"? I'm worreid about septic critters, too.

On the subject of CLR for cleaning pistons (and the question was pistons, not the whole instrument), I figure it's probably okay. Just make sure you remove the buttons, felts, and corks first. Any bathroom acid delimer will do a reasonable job of removing scale. Just make sure you thoroughly wash it out when you're done. And wear chemical gloves.

I just recently used a bathroom delimer to clean valve pistons and rotors on several instruments, cleaning them in an ultrasonic cleaner after I was done. It worked faster and more thoroughly than dishwashing liquid, or even than the ultrasonic cleaner by itself (although the latter gave me some really clean scale). Considering music shops use chromic or muriatic acid, I don't think household-grade cleaning acids should be all that much of a problem for a few minutes, followed by proper rinsing and washing.

Rick "who'd rather use CLR on pistons than bathtubs" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

Sulfamic acid is the primary ingredient in the cleaners available from a couple of well-know instrument repair supply houses. It is widely used by brick masons and concrete finishers for cleaning up masonry and aggregate. Sulfamic acid will only saturate in water to about 10% by weight... make it relatively safe acid to use as a brass de-limer. Used with care it will not harm lacquered or silver finishes, but will play hell with a concrete floor! I submerge horns for about five minutes and always double-rinse. Rubber gloves, rubber apron, safety glasses, and a good water supply in the event of a spill is in order. As one poster mentioned earlier... it will leave a dull spot anywhere the lacquer is missing and will eventually remove any trace of fingerprints from you hands. A raw brass horn will require complete polishing afterwards. Since CLR is basically sulfamic acid I would suspect it would perform about the same. BTW... you can pick up a 50 pound bag of sulfamic acid at just about any chemical supply house for about $40... enough to make about 60 gallons of "witch's brew". Interesting stuff. If the water evaporates, the acid crystals fall out of solution. I don't recommend that you try this at home, in the school workshop, or in the dorm.

[Chuck(G)]

Say, Chuck, is that the same thing as the product called "Iron-Out"? I'm worreid about septic critters, too.

I checked the MSDS for Super Iron Out and looks to be pretty much the same stuff. However, "Instant Rust Out" is another animal altogether--Amonium Bifluoride--which can be pretty nasty stuff if left to work long enough on enamel, tile or glass. But it might make a good brass cleaner...

NaHSO3, on the other hand, can be used in your water softener, washing machine, etc. wtih no bad side effects on you or your septic system.

FWIW, it's used as a food preservative.

However, don't add acid to it! The reaction liberates lots of SO2, which will result in you looking for a quick exit. Usual cautions about use in a ventillated area and not breathing the dust.

[Rick Denney]

However, don't add acid to it! The reaction liberates lots of SO2, which will result in you looking for a quick exit. Usual cautions about use in a ventillated area and not breathing the dust.

The acid neutralizer is the first tank filter my well water passes through. Then the manganese greensand filter (which absorbs most of the soluble iron in the water), and then the water softener. The softener gets what iron the manganese greensand filter misses. But I still use Iron Out in the softener, and the condition of the old softener is the reason. It was so ironfouled it would no longer regenerate.

At least the sulfer dioxide is stinky enough to warn you of its presence.

Rick "finally finding a use for that environmental engineering course taken 28 years ago" Denney