berlioz opheclide

[J.c. Sherman]

And, it is NOT replaceable.

Sure it is! ...a bari or bass sax with a 6-1/2AL trombone mouthpiece.

I know of a tuba player who became an accomplished (ie. "good") ophicleide player. He started bringing his Gautrot (which later became "Couesnon" fwiw) to play some pieces in his ROPA orchestra (perhaps more than he might have dared - such as the Meistersinger Prelude, etc.), and was formally asked to cease.

bloke "who attended a couple of those concerts, and heard very little"

Well, actually a bari with a 6.5AL does sound quite close

I can't deny actual experience, but most conductors expect the output of the ophicleide to be a tuba... it will always fail in this, and the conductor is allowed to arrange the piece for tuba if he/she chooses. If one expects an ophiceide, you'll hear about as much as 2nd bassoon, volume wise. But a tuba, it ain't.

Meistersinger?!? I can understand Lohengrin a little, and Meistersinger is in the range, but hell, Wagner did those replacements himself. I wouldn't use serpent on Midsummer either; it was rescored with ophicleide

[bbocaner]

I explored several fingering charts I found online and then threw them away, as I would up finding fingerings for nearly every note that gave me something more in tune.

It sounds like you weren't using an appropriate mouthpiece. These things are extremely mouthpiece sensitive and using one that is too different than the one it was designed for will throw everything out of wack.

It doesn't have to be the "awfulclyde" -- it's certainly possible to play with a gorgeous sound and very much in tune if you have some patience and skill.

[J.c. Sherman]

I do think if Berlioz was brought back from the dead, he would be happy with the performers playing instruments they had access to and could perform well.

I agree.

And bbocaner is right - these are very mouthpiece sensative, and few people remember to tune the clapper as well as the bocal. Also, the wide throw of the left thumb key can allow subtle tuning on many notes.

J.c.S.

[LARSONTUBA]

Not on topic at all: the awfulclyde stuff is awesome.

On topic: this thread has been really interesting to read. James, I have enjoyed reading your comments, as my research has paralleled what you've been saying. Nice job!

To chime in my own two cents, part of what may have made the re-scoring from serpents to ophecleides to tubas may have been the fact that the serpents just don't project. Ophecleides, with their upward facing bell, may have projected sound better while maintaing the 'somewhat evil' dies irae vibe that Berlioz may have been going for. Same could be said for tubas. As string instruments went from strings made from animal guts to wire, their volume increased. Because ophecleides become more open (i.e. pads are lifted as you go lower,) they wouldn't have projected as much in the lower register. The tuba, even in its most earliest form, would have been a better substitute for this.

I don't know if there is anything that speaks to this effect in research. James? Do you know? You looked into this quite a bit while at Ohio. Any thoughts?

[Alex C]

Obviously this conductor is an idiot. He knows nothing about tuba/opheclide and probably knows nothing about trombone, trumpet, etc. etc. Ignore whatever he says during the performance, he probably won't hear any difference. Gosh, how do so many idiots become conductors?

Don't share the elevator because you might catch idiot disease.

[sailn2ba]

I played an oph once, and russiantuba has it right. . . except that you'll need to select from a lot more of them to get all the notes in tune.

[windshieldbug]

I hesitated once when asked to play opheclide on this - and I both played and had access to one.

My objection was that the instrument would get lost in a modern orchestra.

Oddly enough, though, it turned out that that was probably the point.
The use of a keyed instrument in the Dies irae of the last movement is very reminiscent of Serpents used in sacred musical settings and is unbelievably effective.
The next series it was called for, we used one C and one Bb.

They don't sound like tubas, but in context they sound very uncanny.

[bud]

What about Brahms? What did he think of the opheclide?

Also, Based on what I'm hearing. Seems like having one tuba would be an option too?

[pjv]

Often I've wondered; if an opheclide part is going to be played on a tuba, why not on a tenor tuba?

The overtones are higher up. The bore, bell and mpc are smaller, but its still up to par with modern standards. And in my opinion, an opheclide sounds much more like a tenor tuba/euphonium/baritone than it does an F/Eb/CC/BBb tuba.

-Pat

[UDELBR]

To chime in my own two cents, part of what may have made the re-scoring from serpents to ophecleides to tubas ...

Again, Berlioz never 'rescored' Fantastique for tubas. He grudgingly approved their use only under the most dire circumstances: when no ophicleides were available.

The amount of misinformation packed into this thread is rather impressive.

[J.c. Sherman]

To chime in my own two cents, part of what may have made the re-scoring from serpents to ophecleides to tubas ...

Again, Berlioz never 'rescored' Fantastique for tubas. He grudgingly approved their use only under the most dire circumstances: when no ophicleides were available.

The amount of misinformation packed into this thread is rather impressive.

Indeed... as are the really interesting choices of spelling...

Serpent projects just fine... as a serpent. As does the ophicleide (not due to bell direction... bass clarinet has a bell on the floor, and most contrabassoons point to the floor… serpent bells point up .

Cleveland Orchestra regularly uses a tenor tuba on SF on the first ophi part... the part's scoring is well within the ophicleide's range and doesn't take advantage of the tuba's low range. They're ophicleide parts.

J.c.S.

[Wyvern]

I wonder if two small 'travel tubas' would provide a good modern substitute for the ophicleide? I would think a lot more appropriate sounding than a large tuba, much nearer to the instrument for which it was written while at the same time being a lot more playable than an ophicleide for most modern day tubists.

If/when I next play Symphonie Fantastique I want to try

[Lingon]

I wonder if two small 'travel tubas' would provide a good modern substitute for the ophicleide? I would think a lot more appropriate sounding than a large tuba, much nearer to the instrument for which it was written while at the same time being a lot more playable than an ophicleide for most modern day tubists.

If/when I next play Symphonie Fantastique I want to try

That could be interesting, if you can convince the other brass guys to downscale a bit.
I think I mentioned this in another thread but last time we did the Fantastique the trumpeters used baroque trumpets and we used smaller bore trombones together with 2 small f-tubas. That sounded very different and much 'better', with more variation and colorful sounds without drowning the rest of the orchestra, from the usual large bore everything that we used to use earlier. Especially the viola players appreciated our choice.

[J.c. Sherman]

I wonder if two small 'travel tubas' would provide a good modern substitute for the ophicleide? I would think a lot more appropriate sounding than a large tuba, much nearer to the instrument for which it was written while at the same time being a lot more playable than an ophicleide for most modern day tubists.

If/when I next play Symphonie Fantastique I want to try

I've never heard one of the travel Fs, but assuming it's similar to my compact cimbasso, with a little warmth, I'll bet it would be a very nice substitution. I'd be game if I wasn't allowed to Oph it

Guess I'd better build one first

[musikfind1]

A publication that may be helpful:
BERLIOZ, Hector (1803-1869)
COMPLETE OPHICLEIDE PARTS (edited Clifford Bevan - editor The Tuba Family)
(Including Tuba & Serpent).
Pub: PICCOLO PRESS <http://www.piccolopress.info>

PP0027. Volume 1: Single Ophicleide (or multiple ophicleides in unison throughout). Includes notes on first performances, performing practice,
etc. Benvenuto Cellini; Le corsaire; Harold en italie; Huite scènes de Faust; L’Impèriale; Lèlio; March marocaine; Messe solennelle; Le roi Lear; Romèo et Juliette; Scène héroïque (orch); Scène héroïque (band); Tristia: 3. Marche funèbre pour la dernière scène d’Hamlet; Vox populi: 1. Le menace des francs; 2. Hymne à la France; Waverley.

PP0028. Volume 2: Multiple Ophicleides not in unison throughout.
La damnation de Faust; Grande symphonie funèbre et triomphale; Les francs-juges; Hymne des Marseillais; Symphonie fantastique; Grande messe des morts; Resurrexit; Te Deum.
Set of two volumes £17.50; US $35.00; €25.00.
http://www.piccolopress.info/music_for_brass.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank