King 2341 tuning

[ibr]

Hello friends. I am new here. Please forgive me if I wrote anything wrong. I am learning to write in english.

In the last month, I bought a used King 2341, a good Tuba to play. Here in my country is hard to get a good instrument, because it is very expensive for us. I am in adaptation period, due my last tuba was an Eastman CC model. When I Play the instrument, something is strange: The main tuning slide is working about 42mm open
( 1. 5/8"), close to end of its course, and the notes with the 4th key, low G and low D, are a little sharp. I pulled the tunning slide of the 4th key 20mm (3/4")too. The low C ( open 2nd partial) is a little sharp too.

Do you know tell me if it is normal?

I am playing whith a Yamaha mouthpiece, model Roger Bobo Symphonyc from my previous Tuba. I am looking for a Conn Helleberg mouthpiece. I like to play with a very smooth sound, because I play in a church orchestra.

Is it a good choice?


Thank you for help.

[sloan]

King 2341 in CC?

What model? (approximately) made when? made in BBb and cut to CC?

[Dan Schultz]

Hello! Welcome to the forum. Your English is most likely better than my try at your language might be.

I need to know a little more about your horn.

- Is the bell fixed or detachable.
- If detachable... is it an upright or recording bell?
- A Serial number (on one of the valve casings) would help.
- I would think you probably have a BBb horn but please confirm the key.
- These horns don't normally play sharp. Is your tuner set to A=440?

[Gilligan]

I am in adaptation period, due my last tuba was an Eastman CC model.

When you say "adaption period" do you mean adapting to the change from CC to BBb or from playing an Eastman tuba to playing a King tuba?

The low C ( open 2nd partial) is a little sharp too.

A King 2341 is normally a BBb Tuba unless it has been cut down to CC. I use to have one that was cut to play in CC.

If your King tuba is in BBb the second open partial should be low Bb. If it has been cut down to play in CC the second open partial will be low C. Before we can give you clear advice we need be sure what key the horn is pitched.

[ibr]

Thanks to the answers. How I am at work now, I will write the informations some hours later. I will phone to my home to ask to my wife the serial number and I will write it too. I am very happy to meet other people that like to talk about Tuba. Here in my country, these informations are "like potable water in the centre of the ocean".

[TMurphy]

Just a thought, if its an earlier sample of the "new" King 2341 (short, fixed bell), they did have a tendency to play sharp. I bought one for college back in 2001, and Matt Walters made a new tuning slide that was a bit longer than the original.

[sloan]

Just a thought, if its an earlier sample of the "new" King 2341 (short, fixed bell), they did have a tendency to play sharp. I bought one for college back in 2001, and Matt Walters made a new tuning slide that was a bit longer than the original.

Bingo. Plus...my guess is that he is reading a transposed treble clef part.

[jstrother123]

I had a buddy with an old king with the same problem. He resolved it by adding a sousaphone bit to his mouthpiece.

Jim

[ibr]

Hello friends. Now I will try to organize the informations correctly.

Today, my Tuba is a king 2341, its key is BBb, and its bell is fixed type, its diameter is about 480mm( about 19").

My previus Tuba was an Eastman, its key was CC.

I didn't get a picture from my tuba, but I found a similar picture on internet.

[img]http://thevillagetinker.com/King%202341%20new.jpg[/img]

If I can get a picture from my tuba, I will try to post the photo here.

When I said about the adaptation period, I wanted to say about the fact of I had played with CC Tubas, the Eastman and previously the Eastman, a Weril CC, for sixteen years. Due to this, the valve positions and embouchure used in the partitures' execution with the previous Tubas, was "fixed" in my mind.

In according the table of website of King, my Tuba was made between 1970 and 1975.

King Serial Number Chart

Date ************************Serial Number
1883-1915 ****************1-50,000
1915-1925 ****************50,000-78,000
1925-1930 ****************78,001-128,000
1930-1935 ****************126,001-161,000
1935-1940 ****************161,001-220,000
1940-1945 ****************220,001-275,000
1945-1950 ****************275,001-305,000
1950-1955 ****************305,001-340,000
1955-1960 ****************340,001 - 370,000
1960-1965 ****************406,501-457,600
1970-1975*****************457,601-511,750
1975-1980 ****************511,751-850,975
1981-1982 *****************850,976-906-859
1983-1984 *****************906,860-976,571
1985-1986 *****************976,572 - 999,999


I am using a Yamaha TD-1 tuner. This tuner was calibrated using a signal generator , a subwoofer and a digital scope. It made tests with 110, 220, 440, and 880 Hz and sinusoidal wave.

About when I was saying about low C, G and D, I wanted to say The "written notes", that correspond to low Bb, F and C "effect notes" or may be " real sounds". Here in our orchestra, each musician play in the partiture written to each key of their instrument. When I need play with other key, I change the partiture and I can play normally. We have Bb, C and Eb versions. When we are learning, we study the CC tuba key positions on the chromatic scale. When we play, we take a adequate partiture to instrument.

How You use the "real sounds" as standard, henceforth I will write refering to these sounds.

So, the real notes that I wanted to refer are the "real sonds" low Bb( open 2nd partial), F and C(4th key pressed)

About the mouthpiece, today I am playing with a Yamaha Roger Bobo Symphonic. I looking for a Conn Helleberg 120 S mouthpiece, because I am feeling the notes (real sounds) low Bb, Low A, low Ab a little "bright",

Is the Conn Helleberg 120S a good mouthpiece to my Tuba?

[Matt Walters]

The first generations of the new shorter fixed bell King 2341 tubas did indeed play a bit too sharp. The factory fixed that with two longer ferrules at the 5th branch.

[sloan]

The first generations of the new shorter fixed bell King 2341 tubas did indeed play a bit too sharp. The factory fixed that with two longer ferrules at the 5th branch.

What would a mere "bugler" know of such matters?

[iiipopes]

Is the Conn Helleberg 120S a good mouthpiece to my Tuba?

Yes.

If the jaw is tight, that can also sharpen the lower register. Work on "relaxing" or "big slow air" with the proper firm corners of the embouchure, but with as relaxed a jaw and throat as possible, starting softly, but with enough air to get a proper defined intonation, and work your way down to see if that helps the sharpness.

[iiipopes]

The first generations of the new shorter fixed bell King 2341 tubas did indeed play a bit too sharp. The factory fixed that with two longer ferrules at the 5th branch.

What would a mere "bugler" know of such matters?

Ha!!! For the benefit of our OP, this is in good fun, and is meant with the highest respect for Matt, who is not only an expert, but also built the prototype of the original Conn 5XJ series, which used as its basis King 2341 parts.

[hup_d_dup]

To the OP: do you know what an OP is?

[Rick Denney]

...I didn't get a picture from my tuba, but I found a similar picture on internet.

[img]http://thevillagetinker.com/King%202341%20new.jpg[/img]

... In according the table of website of King, my Tuba was made between 1970 and 1975.

...
Is the Conn Helleberg 120S a good mouthpiece to my Tuba?

The picture shows a new-style King 2341, which did not start production until about five years ago. If it has a fixed bell and is about 36 inches tall (90 cm), then it is not nearly as old as you think. King may have started their serial numbers over again since that list was compiled.

The Model 2341 tubas of the 1970's had interchangeable upright and forward bells, and the upright bells were 22" (55 cm) in diameter, and 41" (over 100 cm) tall.

The Conn Helleberg is a basic mouthpiece that works reasonably well in all tubas. If what you have is completely unsuitable, the Conn is a good place to start over, and work from there to find something specifically appropriate for that instrument and for your playing.

Rick "agreeing that some of the earliest of the new-style 2341's had issues, but worth solving" Denney

[ibr]

Ok Rick. So, the Helleberg is "basic" mouthpiece for all works, right?. Do you think the Vincent Back nº 12 would be better for me?

[ibr]

At last, I found a way to poust the pictures of my tuba.

[iiipopes]

Ok Rick. So, the Helleberg is "basic" mouthpiece for all works, right?. Do you think the Vincent Back nº 12 would be better for me?

No. It has a larger diameter, but not quite as deep a bowl cup and a larger throat that may be difficult to center and control.

[Dan Schultz]

I was a little puzzled by this horn. Ivan emailed me pictures before he realized he could post them and I forward the images to Matt Walters. Here is Matt's response:

"..... Whoever added the 4th valve assembly to that horn had some skill. He took the time to make the brace look similar (not exact) between the valves and did an hour glass ferrule for the knuckles. When we add a 4th valve the goal is to make it fool us at first glance. I thought it was original at first until I blew up the picture. The first clue was I don't think I ever saw an orginal King tuba that didn't have both tubes for the 4th valve wrap come out the same side. I've seen others fit a Reynolds or Olds cap on a worn down King valve casing.
Ivan,
What I can add to Dan's comments is that from looking at the picture, I believe the entire 4th valve is not original to the tuba. I never worked on that horn. I'd check for leaks and also coat the valves with sewing machine oil to see if it plays better for you. If the thicker valve oil gives you a "Oh my god this plays better" moment instead of "maybe it plays better", you need a valve job."

Taking a closer looker at the hardware surrounding the 4th valve, I can now see that those parts don't exactly match those on the 1241 or 2341 tubas. So... there you have it. This horn is most likely a model 1240 (3V King) with the 4th valve added... with donor 4th valve parts from an Olds or Reynolds.

[Rick Denney]

At last, I found a way to poust the fictures of my tuba.

In addition to Dan's and Matt's obervations, the bell does not look original to me. I don't recall ever seeing a 1240 with a fixed upright bell, and if it had one, it wouldn't have been 19". It is too tall to be a new-style King.

Rick "wondering if Dan or Matt have an opinion on where the bell came from" Denney