pBone?

[hbcrandy]

I went to Baltimore Brass Company last Thursday and saw my first pBones. At first, I thought they were a joke, but, was informend that they are the latest development in trombones.

Being uninitiated in this new instrument design technology, I have the following questions:

- In that my contract with Maryland Conservatory of Music says that I am, "Instructor of Applied Low Brass", does this mean that, if a student shows up with a pBone, I have to renegotiate my contract to read, "Instructor of Applied Low Brass and Low Plastic"?

- Also, will there be accoustical studies performed to see if the red one has a darker sound and less carrying power than the green or yellow pBone?

- Last but not least, do those things actually play? Have any of our list members played one or heard one played?

Remembering what a disaster that fiberglass tubas and Sousaphones were, I am hoping that they don't start making pTubas.

[aqualung]

Do these things actually play?

If I was an Instructor of Applied Low Brass, I would have tooted one (or more) of the P-Bones instead of posting here.

[hbcrandy]

Your points are well-taken. i did not have a trombone mouthpiece with me upon my last visit to BBC. I do plan another visit this coming week to take a pBone on trial and let my trombone students have a go at it.

My comments on fiberglass instruments are based on personal experience and some knowledge of metallugry. I, personally, found fiberglass instruments lacking in resonance and impractical for symphonic work. Yellow brass and related non-ferrous alloys allow variants in timbre coloration by their variance in copper content. Also, annealing factors, determining the relative hardness or softness of a spun or pegged bell, allow for timbre variants that, to my knowledge, plastic does not have. However, I will keep an open mind as my students test this instrument.

My main purpose in my original post was to see if anyone on tubenet had tried the pBone and could give me a preliminary report.

[eupher61]

Yes, it's small. And, with the stock mouthpiece it stinks.

In the hands of a GOOD player, with an appropriate metal mouthpiece, they sound pretty doggone good. I wonder about a Kelly 6 1/2 in one...

They will never replace an 8H or 88H or 4B, or even a 2B or a Collegiate, but for what they are, it's worth it. I wouldn't buy 'em for a high school section, although that's happening, but I will buy one for dixieland playing.

Jiggs sounds pretty good on it. Good enough for me.

[USStuba04]

Have one, pays just fine.

Lots of marching bands are buying them in school colors.

Saw a few pictures go across my Facebook, including the Boston symphony section all playing a different color, and Mike had a red fiberglass sousa. Tom "bones" Malone plays one on whatever night show that is. Canadian brass too...

[Rick Denney]

Randy, your conclusions about plastic are a bit exaggerated, I think. There have been plastic tubas that sound like...tubas. Good for symphonic work? Probably not. But then the metal versions of those same instruments might not be, either.

I have a Martin Bb tuba that has fiberglass outer branches and a 3-banger valve body. It's in poor condition, but it plays and sounds mellow and lovely. More to the point, it sounds absolutely like a tuba. It isn't a symphonic instrument, perhaps, but there are lots of tuba gigs (professional tuba gigs) where it would be entirely appropriate. Lenny Jung played this particular instrument for many years in the National Concert Band, without complaints.

And there are certainly differences between fiberglass and brass sousaphones, but those differences really are down in the subtlety range. Those subtleties matter in an orchestra situation (where no sousaphone would be used no matter what it's made of), but for many gigs they just don't matter at all. Portability and durability might be just as important in those gigs--the downside of brass is that it is heavy and weak--and professionals do have to consider whether their symphonic tubas might sustain more damage in certain kinds of gigs than their pay might offset.

None of the plastic instruments I've played are even mildly incompetent, let alone disasters.

I inspected a pBone at the Army conference, and tooted it a bit. I'm utterly unqualified to judge a trombone, but I seemed to make the same crappy sounds on it as I make on a brass trombone, and I have a couple of nice ones. For stuff like this, the first question is: Is it a trombone, or a trombone-shaped sculpture? Answer: it's a trombone. Second question, is it mechanically sound? Answer: Yes. Third question, does the slide move acceptably? Answer: Yes. Fourth question: will it undermine the experience of a beginning player? Answer: I don't think so.

Rick "who did not ask whether it was a good symphonic instrument" Denney

[Lingon]

...I, personally, found fiberglass instruments lacking in resonance and impractical for symphonic work...

Well, not exactly symphonic work, but one of the solo trombonists of the Royal Opera orchestra here in Stockholm used a yellow pbone when they did a Carmen performance, and it worked surprisingly well...

Maybe there is a difference depending on which color you choose.

[TMurphy]

As an elementary/middle school band teacher, I have every intention of ordering 1-2 of these, in different colors, for use at work. They're light, the bright colors will attract the attention of students, and they play pretty well for what the are, and what they cost. I'd order more of them, but my school budget is pretty limited.

As a side question, does anyone know if these come with some kind of case?

[hbcrandy]

Thank you. That is the kind of feedback that I sought.

[ken k]

the pbones come with an unpadded gig bag type of case. When I say unpadded, I mean it. It is just a thin nylon bag shaped like a trombone gig bag, no padding at all. Of course you do not have to worry about denting too much.

My biggest complaint is the slide noise. They say it gets better as it "breaks in." Not sure how long that should take. The slide action is not bad but it makes a shhhhhshhhing kind of noise of the plastic rubbing agaist the metal inner sleeve and the plastic inner slide. I believe the black slide is actually fiberglas, not sure?

They do sound a bit better with a shallow metal mouthpiece in them, like a Bach 7c. The focus of the sound below the fourth line F is not the greatest but above that it sounds fine. Again I feel the shallower mouthpiece focuses the sound better than a deeper one like a 6 1/2 AL. I have used mine on a few rock band gigs where I am playing into a mike. No harm done.

They would also have a legitimate purpose as a travel/practice instrument. The case is quite small and light and would easily qualify as a carry-on bag.

All in all I would say they are worth $150.

ken k

[Lingon]

...My biggest complaint is the slide noise...

As someone in another place hinted, use ear plugs and you won't hear the scratching noise.

[pjv]

I've tried out four. What I played sounded like a trombone with not too many highs, but it sounded like a trombone. I could even get subtle on it.

I don't know if the batches being made now are worse than the originals, but the slides were all sluggish to the point of being unplayable. It was impossible to play any relatively fast passages. The inevitable box ball effect on my lips convinced me NOT to buy this horn even though my intentions were to purchase one.

I guess I'll have to wait and see if they ever make a valved trombone.

Cheers,
Patrick

[David Richoux]

What will they think of next...??

plastic clarinets...??

plastic oboes...??

plastic piccolos...??

nah. no way.

Hey - I have a plastic Bagpipe! (Delrin drones and chanter, a synthetic bladder, nylon gasket threads and a PE fabric bag cover, plastic or cane reeds are options.) Sounds just as good/bad as a "natural one" but they are very popular even with the pro's for wet weather outdoor gigs.

[Paul Tkachenko]

I'm with Rick on the fibreglass instruments.

I use my fibreglass sousa all the time over my brass one. It sounds fine.

Unlikely to be asked to play sousaphone in an orchestra anyway and if I were, I would be happy to turn up with the fibreglass one.

[Rick Denney]

I believe the black slide is actually fiberglas, not sure?

The outer slide tube is a carbon composite. That is listed as an advantage--as the slide wears, the carbon dust lubricates the slide.

Rick "we report; you decide" Denney

[J.c. Sherman]

As one of the first US owners of a pBone, here's my take.

You'll never find a better $150 trombone unless it's 2B or Olds Ambassador in better shape than the cost deserves.

The slide, with regular cleanings early on, breaks in very well. Several techs on the trombone-l have worked out a couple slick tricks for reducing the break-in time and quieting the slide.

I use either slide-o-mix or plain water. Water fills the waterkey very quick, but it seems to work the best, as the original designer indicated.

Listen with your ears on these. My two very nice period trombones have been "voted off the island" in favor of the pBone in both Dixieland bands and my 20 dance band. They much prefer the pBone, despite the extreme anachronism. The only instrument they prefer to the pBone is an early Bach 36, which I don't like taking to these gigs too much. It's a beloved instrument now after only 6 months.

It sounds weird for a while to the player, because the tone radiates from the bell differently than we’re used to. You get used to it.

Bag sucks... but you should be careful with any instrument, and with minor attention paid, it's not an issue.

Local band directors hate it, curse me, my shop (I’m not owner) and our parents when a student buys one. Then we send a link to them of Jiggs playing on (and now a photo of the BSO playing them) and they STFU.

My wife calls it nerf trombone... she loves asking to carry it in for me

Pedal tones and notes above high D are not fantastic. With a Kelly plastic they improve a great deal. I don't like how the instrument plays with a metal mouthpiece, but YMMV. The slide is the lightest in existence, and it makes 4 hour gigs pass pain and fatigue free. You also feel at liberty to try things you wouldn’t normally try on a straight horn. Bottom line is, if you’d accept a student with a King 3B, this is just fine.

J.c. "pBone" S.

[pjv]

The slide "breaks in"? You mean when you buy it new you're not supposed to be able to play 16th note passages at 120 bpm? 'Cause this is the reason I didn't buy it. It wasn't the sound that deterred me, it was the horrible slide. I just figured all Chinese trombones were like that. (sorry)

It seems strange to sell a brand new musical instrument and expect the buyer to go through a major period of unacceptable musical standards and physical pain on the lips to boot. Even if they are selling this as a student trombone; a student shouldn't have to deal with a slide quality which surely would only encourage bad habits.

-Patrick

[J.c. Sherman]

The slide "breaks in"? You mean when you buy it new you're not supposed to be able to play 16th note passages at 120 bpm? 'Cause this is the reason I didn't buy it. It wasn't the sound that deterred me, it was the horrible slide. I just figured all Chinese trombones were like that. (sorry)

It seems strange to sell a brand new musical instrument and expect the buyer to go through a major period of unacceptable musical standards and physical pain on the lips to boot. Even if they are selling this as a student trombone; a student shouldn't have to deal with a slide quality which surely would only encourage bad habits.

-Patrick

$150.00

It's new technology, and it's not a metal-on metal, 500 years of construction knowledge instrument. They do work well. And, I'll bet the one you tried had a slide better than 85% of young students I've met, some with brand new instruments.

Bottom line, $150. It ain't a Schmeltzer.

J.c.S. (who'll happily send you a perfect slide pBone for a mere $250.00).

[TMurphy]

The slide "breaks in"? You mean when you buy it new you're not supposed to be able to play 16th note passages at 120 bpm? 'Cause this is the reason I didn't buy it. It wasn't the sound that deterred me, it was the horrible slide. I just figured all Chinese trombones were like that. (sorry)

It seems strange to sell a brand new musical instrument and expect the buyer to go through a major period of unacceptable musical standards and physical pain on the lips to boot. Even if they are selling this as a student trombone; a student shouldn't have to deal with a slide quality which surely would only encourage bad habits.

-Patrick

$150.00

It's new technology, and it's not a metal-on metal, 500 years of construction knowledge instrument. They do work well. And, I'll bet the one you tried had a slide better than 85% of young students I've met, some with brand new instruments.

Yup. If I'm going to handing these to 4th and 5th graders, I'm pretty sure the slide is going to be more than good enough, out of the box, for what those kids will be playing for the first few months.

-TM, who refers to September as "Hot Cross Buns season."

[daytontuba]

I am the assistant director of a local community band, and two of our better trombonists have PBones (in addition to their regular horns of course!). One red, one yellow. They have used them in several rehearsals, and they sound fine (albeit we are not playing any really challenging pieces right now). We shall see as this concert year goes on how well they do.