Playing In Tune (an Introduction for Tuba & Brass Performers

[mark38655]

This is a obviously very long post. It follows my post about the harmonic series and equal temperament, but is much less about physics and more about teaching intonation. If you disagree with any of my thoughts on this subject, then please post a response and also state why you think differently. As always, I am interested in knowing truth, and if there is something that I post that is contrary to what you think is true, then I want that to be pointed out in a way that encourages discussion.

Mark Howle

Playing In Tune
an Introduction for Tuba & Brass Performers

A very good analogy of playing in tune involves driving a car down a highway. The driver initially sets the steering wheel based on an estimate of what will point the car down the center of the lane. He then makes a series of small corrections as he progresses down the road in order to keep the car on the correct path. The best drivers make the smallest corrections the most often, and do so in a way so that others are not even aware the corrections need to be made. When someone else is out-of-tune, it is like a curve in the road. The driver doesn't have to know the technical mechanics used by the car for the turn, he just has to know an adjustment needs to be made, how to make the adjustment and then make sure the car resumes a path down the center of the lane. It does help however, if he knows ahead of time there is a left turn ahead, so learning which notes are likely to be flat or sharp can only make it easier to play really well in tune during a performance.

The ability to play in tune is a skill achieved by the individual performer. Therefore, instruction regarding tuning should be geared to the individual. Ensembles whose members play in tune together are made up of individuals who have the specific skill set required in order to play in tune with others. Ultimately all individuals within an ensemble should demonstrate the ability to match pitch on all notes of the chromatic scale within the range of the music being performed. Good intonation playing habits should then be evaluated and reinforced in the ensemble setting. This can be done first with unison warm-up exercises that use all notes of the chromatic scale, and then with the performance music itself.

The student should never assume that the teacher will take responsibility for his playing in tune. Neither should the teacher assume that the student will play in tune just because his tuning slide in the “right” place. The responsibility for playing in tune is in fact shared by the individual performer and the teacher/conductor. It is the responsibility of the teacher to show the student how to develop skills necessary to play in tune and to make sure he demonstrates consistent use of them in rehearsal. It is the responsibility of the student performer to learn how to play all the notes of his instrument in tune and to be able to adjust on-the-fly when things change from what is expected. During the performance itself the teacher/conductor is completely powerless whereas the student performer is in complete control of his tuning. The best teachers know how to motivate their students to take full responsibility for always playing in tune.

There are two types of intonation skills in music: melodic and harmonic. Melodic intonation involves playing individual notes in succession and requires the listener to remember the pitch of a previous note while hearing a different one in order to compare the combination of the two. Harmonic intonation involves two or more instruments playing at the same time, and is easier for most students to master than is melodic intonation. For this reason, this method book will focus mainly on harmonic intonation.

One method for tuning an ensemble is to check one or two main notes for each player with a tuner and afterwards listen for problem notes during the rehearsal. When problems are noticed, individual notes are checked and students are taught how to adjust the pitch when they are not in tune. This method has proven effective in many situations and in a many places for a number of years.

An extension of this method often includes having each student play all notes of the chromatic scale in front of a tuner and to write down which of these notes are either flat or sharp. In theory, this helps the students learn to predict which notes will likely need to be adjusted prior to playing them out-of-tune. However, one problem with this exercise is that it lacks any aural feedback to the student. Another problem is that often brass instruments are so flexible that a student could inadvertently play a quarter step either side of the center of pitch without event trying to bend the note. Therefore, some students could play all their notes with a tuner three separate times, accurately notate the pitch of each note every time, but have three totally different reference records for their pitch tendencies of notes.

Poor intonation should sound bad to the performer, and he should get immediate, accurate feedback constantly while playing his instrument. A better exercise that would help the student to learn the tendencies of all his notes would be to play each note of his chromatic scale while attempting to match pitch with an aural reference and also while looking at the tuner. This teaches the student, 1) how it sounds when a note is out-of-tune, or in-tune, 2) how it feels when he bends it up or down, and more importantly, 3) what to do to each specific note of his instrument in order to successfully play it in-tune.

Another activity used by one successful conductor is to place a hand-held tuner on each individual music stand. The advantage to this is that the student can see if he is flat or sharp to the standard and make an association to the sound of being out-of-tune each time he sees that he is out-of-tune. It stands to reason, that in time the student will learn how it sounds not only when he is out-of-tune, but more specifically when he is flat and when he is sharp.

However, sometimes many otherwise competent teachers repeatedly tune their students but seem to have little knowledge of how to teach them to develop their own good intonation skills. A common method used is to have the instrumental performer play a tuning note while the teacher looks at a tuner. The student is not allowed to see the tuner, so he has to rely on feel instead of sound. The teacher makes a judgement as to how far the tuning slide is to be adjusted. Then the student plays the same tuning note again, and if he happens to match the tuner, voila! This method is like putting a beginning driver behind the steering wheel, precisely setting it so the car points down the road, but then making him drive forward without telling him to adjust the wheel in order to stay on the road. It is obvious that setting the slide position with a tuner is very important for most young brass players, but it is an initial step only. Students often have to go beyond the instruction they receive in order to meet the demands of playing in tune.

Recent advancements in technology make it so much easier to learn to play in tune than it was only a few years ago. The electronic synthesizer with its very reliable tuning of the equal tempered scale and the music sequencers that play performance music through an audio sound system or stereo are excellent examples. More recently the ability to scan a piece of sheet music, convert it to a music notation file, and then convert it to a sequencer file that plays the music at various speeds has opened up a whole new world of instructional possibilities. Sharpeye2 is currently the best sheet music scanning software available for Windows. Sharpeye will convert the scanned image of music into an XML format and will read as much as 98% of what is on the page including most style and dynamic markings, depending on the quality of the original sheet music. Finale reads the XML file and provides the tools for editing the music, and will then convert it to SmartMusic. SmartMusic will play the music file through an electronic sound system, and it is very easy to adjust the tempo after the file is created to match the ability level of the performer. As a side note, the tuning pitch can also be adjusted from the default A-440 to any other standard. This provides a very accurate reference for both tuning and rhythm available for all performance music. One solo movement with piano accompaniment can be converted from sheet music to a functional SmartMusic file in as little as 30 minutes. A full concert overture can be converted in several hours.

At a basic level, playing in tune requires the ability to match the pitch of a steady, reliable source while playing a unison long-tone note. This requires careful listening skills and is complicated by the fact that there are usually several different and unrelated variables that affect the tuning or pitch of a wind instrument. Ultimately the performer will need to be aware of how all these variables affect tuning, then how to both anticipate and compensate for their effects while performing. However, for the beginning instrumental music student, there is one overall skill the player needs to master and practice daily: The ability to match pitch.

Matching pitch requires two basic abilities: 1) recognizing out-of-tune notes while playing, and 2) altering the pitch of his instrument on-the-fly also while playing. Hearing out-of-tune notes when two or more instruments play together requires the listener to aurally recognize the presence of beats, which are pulses or fluctuations in volume sometimes referred to as “wa-wa” sounds. In addition, the player must also alter the pitch of his instrument while playing in order to slow these beats down and ultimately make them stop completely. (In this case the term “beat” refers to tuning, not rhythm.)

Initially, learning how to hear this type thing requires the beginner to practice daily on a very long single note that may last up to as much as 10-15 seconds. Play this long tone in unison with an electronic keyboard set to “organ” or other sustainable tone. Concentrate only on whether or not you can hear the beats, then if they are fast or slow. Every person who has the ability to hear fluctuations in volume, has the ability to learn to hear if two instruments are in-tune with each other. From there it is a matter of gradual development of aural skills to that required of a professional musician. Sometimes it is important to make out-of-tune sounds very obvious to the performer in order for him to better hear them while playing. A very simple aid to hearing intonation or tuning problems is to place an ear plug in one ear. This is helpful to better hear your own tuning while playing, but will not be necessary to hear the tuning of another performer.

There are two main ways for a performer to alter the pitch of a brass instrument: adjust a tuning slide or alter the speed of the embouchure buzz while playing. Sometimes tubas come with a pull rod connected to the main tuning slide that enables the player to adjust the pitch of any note on the instrument while performing. This is clearly the easiest way to alter the pitch of a brass instrument. However, since most tubas do not come with a mechanism for adjusting the main tuning slide while playing, it is important that the player learn to adjust the pitch with his embouchure. This is done by buzzing slightly higher or lower than what is desired for the note being played. All brass instruments will produce only the notes that are in the overtone series for that instrument, and the particular valve combination being used. Except in the upper register of the tuba, the performer can usually buzz as far as a whole step in either direction before the instrument changes to a different note (or partial) altogether. This concept of “lipping” a note up or down is simple in theory, but requires embouchure muscle strength and daily practice. The further the pitch is bent away from the center or sweet spot, the more adversely the tone is affected. This is because the tuba will produce its best tone only when the embouchure is buzzing the pitch that is exactly in the center of where the instrument is tuned. Another advantage to adjusting the slide to fine tune every note, is that the performer can play every note in the center of pitch, therefore optimizing tone quality.

As a side note, it may be helpful to know that it is easier to lip the pitch down on brass instruments than it is to bend it up. Since this is a skill peculiar to brass playing, and not part of any other cultural practice or ritual, it is likely to be unfamiliar and therefore more challenging for the young tuba performer to master. Therefore, special exercises must be practiced daily in order to learn the skill of pitch alteration if the young student is to become proficient at matching pitch in performance situations.

Lipping the pitch up or down is an exercise that should be first practiced by buzzing the mouthpiece while it is detached from the instrument. Practice matching pitch while buzzing with an electronic keyboard and try to stay in tune with it while the pitch is bent up or down. (Many electronic keyboards have a pitch bending controller that allows this.) Bend the pitch up and down a full whole step from the original pitch. This is the amount of pitch alteration you may end up having to buzz into the mouthpiece while matching pitch on your instrument.

With the mouthpiece back on the instrument, play an F below the staff and buzz lower and lower until the tuba changes notes. This will show you how much is too far to bend. Repeat the exercise by raising the pitch of the F until the tuba changes notes again. Then repeat both exercises and bend the maximum amount without changing notes. Repeat this pitch-bending exercise daily on various notes or scales in your middle, lower and higher ranges of the instrument.

In addition to matching pitch with other performers, every individual wind instrument has specific pitch tendencies for each of its notes. There is no brass instrument, except possibly the slide trombone, that plays all its notes naturally in tune with each other, therefore some notes will need to be altered by raising, and others by lowering while performing. This will be the case no matter how good the instrument is or where the tuning slide is set prior to a performance.

Setting the main tuning slide: Since there are always several variables that constantly affect tuning, setting the main tuning slide in advance of a performance is not an exact science, rather an approximation. Electronic tuners offer a visual aid to let the player or teacher see specifically how far out-of-tune a note is. Visual tuners make great references when the player is not yet proficient at hearing how well in tune a note is. However, unless some future technology is designed that allows the performer to see how his tuning compares to other musicians on-the-fly in actual performance situations, he/she must learn to hear intonation relationships between himself and those with whom he is performing.

The quickest and easiest way to learn to play all notes of a piece of music in tune, is to practice regularly matching pitch with SmartMusic on two things: 1) warm-up exercises that include all notes of the chromatic scale and 2) the performance music itself. This applies to performers of all levels, middle school to professional. Become aware of which specific notes are sharp and which are flat, and practice matching pitch on them separately in order to learn what to do when playing them in performance music.

The variables that affect pitch are:
1.The length of the tubing of the wind or brass instrument; (the longer the length, the lower the pitch)
2.The frequency the embouchure is buzzing into the mouthpiece; (the faster the frequency of the buzz, the higher the pitch)
3.The shape of the inside of the mouth and throat affect the pitch as well; (“E” sounds or smaller shapes tend to raise the pitch-- “O” sounds, or larger shapes tend to lower the pitch.)
4.The temperature of the air inside the instrument, (the warmer the air the higher the pitch, the colder the air the lower the pitch) Therefore, the longer you play in one session, the warmer the inside of the instrument and the higher the pitch will climb.
5.The barometric pressure inside the instrument, (the lower the pressure, and the higher the pitch)
6.The humidity level inside the room where the instrument is being played; Although studies are inconclusive as to the effect of humidity, it stands to reason that the higher the humidity, the higher the density of air and therefore the lower the pitch.
7.The volume the performer is playing; (playing loud tends to make the pitch rise on the all brass instruments, the softer the volume, the lower the pitch)
8. Sometimes if the player is more tense than normal, the pitch will go sharp.
9. Positioning the teeth further apart will lower the pitch.
10.When the total air volume in the lungs runs low, the tendency is to move it slower and thereby the pitch tends to drop.

[PMeuph]

Poor intonation should sound bad to the performer, and he should get immediate, accurate feedback constantly while playing his instrument. A better exercise that would help the student to learn the tendencies of all his notes would be to play each note of his chromatic scale while attempting to match pitch with an aural reference and also while looking at the tuner. This teaches the student, 1) how it sounds when a note is out-of-tune, or in-tune, 2) how it feels when he bends it up or down, and more importantly, 3) what to do to each specific note of his instrument in order to successfully play it in-tune.

I'll split hairs again, but I recently played a new piece for jazz band with wind ensemble. The trombone parts, (I was playing 3rd) had plenty of quarter tone passing notes. These were played against pitches a quarter tone lower and higher (d, d1/4#,eb). I don't think it sounded bad at all. (That was the best part of the piece for me)

Unusual, not bad...

I would add a comment somewhere about how one has to be habituated to our (Western) tuning system, and before one is fully used to it, the Western system might sound peculiar to somebody from another part of the world.

__________
A book recommendation for you, is Gary Karpinski's Aural Skills Acquisition.

[Paul Tkachenko]

Yes, it could do with a bit of an edit with regard to prose, but I'm sure that will be undertaken anyway ...

I understand what you mean by 'beat' with regard to tuning, but I wonder if this may confuse some students?

I don't have a better suggestion right now, but perhaps someone else has some ideas?

[sousaphone68]

I for years believed the warmer the instrument the sharper the pitch until a conductor who also repaired brass instruments pointed out that metal expands with increased temps. and so the instrument goes flatter.
It makes sense when thought about and when warmed up my main tuba needs about a quarter inch of a pull to its main slide.
Other adjustments are made by fingering choice and lipping as needed.

[ShoelessWes]

I for years believed the warmer the instrument the sharper the pitch until a conductor who also repaired brass instruments pointed out that metal expands with increased temps. and so the instrument goes flatter.
It makes sense when thought about and when warmed up my main tuba needs about a quarter inch of a pull to its main slide.
Other adjustments are made by fingering choice and lipping as needed.

The speed of sound is not static. The speed of sound is actually faster in warm air and slower in cold air. This difference has a direct correllation to pitch.

c=fluid speed of sound
w=wavelength
f=frequency

c=w*f

The change in metal length is insignificant, compared to the change in air temperature.

[b.williams]

Enjoyed reading your essay. Playing in tune is always a challenge. Playing your note at the actual pitch will sound out if the ensemble is sharp etc. BTW, I have to practice everyday to be able to adjust to what the ensemble is doing.

[PMeuph]

Will you mention alternative fingerings?

[mark38655]

Thanks to everyone for reading my post. It could surely be improved with the help of a good editor. My fiance, Debbie has been subtly dropping hints about that ever since I made her listen to me read it out loud to her. I can probably make it a little better myself by waiting a few weeks and then reading it cold. (That usually results in my finding something that makes me say "what was I thinking when I wrote that?!?".) Some of the info was written yesterday. The brief mention of trombones for example was added because my youngest son, Sam questioned my blanket statement about no brass instrument being in tune with itself.

It does need some info about alternate fingerings. The collection of warm-up and tuning exercises that this writing is a part of has a fingering chart, but it does not have suggested alternate fingerings. So, either an additional page for alternate fingerings, with notes for recommended uses or a complete chart with all the notes that can be played with every possible valve combination.

Something else I thought of last night---I only mention matching pitch with unison notes. There should be some reference to matching octaves, perfect fifths, fourths, and Major and minor thirds. The reality is that if you can match unison notes, then matching the octave is easy to learn, then each addition interval is just gradually more difficult. By the way, I bought The Tuning CD a few years back, (very VERY good stuff) and it demonstrated that you could actually hear beats with intervals as small as a minor second. (I'm not sure I could hear them even with a major second.) The smallest interval I could hear well enough to match, even with a simple long tone lasting 10 seconds, was a minor third.

The practical application for matching perfect fifths would be to play your warm-up exercise in Bb while listening to a SmartMusic file in F or Eb, etc.

[PMeuph]

Something else I thought of last night---I only mention matching pitch with unison notes. There should be some reference to matching octaves, perfect fifths, fourths, and Major and minor thirds. The reality is that if you can match unison notes, then matching the octave is easy to learn, then each addition interval is just gradually more difficult. By the way, I bought The Tuning CD a few years back, (very VERY good stuff) and it demonstrated that you could actually hear beats with intervals as small as a minor second. (I'm not sure I could hear them even with a major second.) The smallest interval I could hear well enough to match, even with a simple long tone lasting 10 seconds, was a minor third.

I have all my students learn to sing scales in thirds and sixths. While 4ths and 5ths are easier to hear in tune (as the relationship between them is the same for the whole scale with the exception of the tritone), thirds and sixths are more practical for classical repertoire. In common practice music (Bach to Brahms) large portions of the music are based on 3rds/6ths.

[Rick Denney]

- I believe many (tuba) players (in particular) really don't believe this, and relegate this aspect of their playing down to "#5" or even "#25".
- I work at this, and it is hard for me.
- I believe one of the best solutions is to "learn" the pitches. If a player plays enough, they can recognize the pitches and whether they are above or below A=440 (or, if they choose, above or below A=441....etc.)
- I believe most people can teach this to themselves, and it is not some "gift" that one is "born" with.
- "very slightly flat" tuba pitch is probably preferable to a "very slightly sharp" tuba pitch.
- I would bet that those who claim some of the most academic knowledge about tuning pitches for certain chords, certain situations, or certain applications are just as guilty as anyone of unknowingly playing as much as 25 1/100ths of a semitone out-of-tune from time-to-time.
- Referring again to those who will argue over two or three hundredths of a semitone for this-or-that special application (but who - in practice - falter as much as anyone else), realistically "within 5 cents of the best possible place" (because of the broad tone - ie. "full of overtones" - of most tubas) usually is good enough to "get by", but "within 1 - 2 cents of the best possible place" suddenly sounds strikingly better.
- Playing all pitches perfectly in tune at equal temperament (with no adjustments whatsoever for applications within chords) is probably doing better than 99.99999% of all musicians (excluding the use of hours of ProTools tweaking in recordings).
- A badly out-of-tune tuba in an ensemble messes up everything. An astonishingly in-tune tuba in an ensemble seems to amplify the quantity of the sound of an ensemble.

bloke "who plays out of tune"

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Discussions of what is in tune and why are academic and theoretical. People routinely play in tune without knowing any of that stuff (or much of anything in your article, Mark), and routinely play out of tune even if they know all that stuff deeply.

The best way to teach someone to play in tune is to teach them what playing in tune sounds like, and then what sort of adjustments they have to make to produce those sounds, with the sound of being in tune always the performance measure.

I struggle with this with my quintet, and with my section mates. Some folks push buttons and blow, and when you suggest that such-and-such note isn't in tune and let's spend time at the next break to tune it up, they are at a loss as to 1.) what you mean, and 2.) how you know. They've never been taught to listen for beats or the lack of them, and their listening would not be enhanced by knowing them to be an interference pattern that is the nature of tuning anything the frequency domain from tubas to antennas.

While I agree with Joe that playing in tune to equal temperament would be better than what most folks deliver, I would also suggest that when playing to produce the best sound, equal temperament is not where a person will land. In a small group like a quintet or a section, the sound is everything. When laying down a pitch for the rest of the band, when the tubas will nearly always be establishing the root of the chord, playing those learned (through sound, as Joe suggests) equally tempered pitches is probably the only reasonable approach.

Mark, here's a difficult challenge for you: Distill your principles down to one clean paragraph. Keep going through it, removing the stuff that is repetitive or that is a distraction, until you get it down to the central series of actions you want the practitioners in your audience to take. For posts in a forum, which are more brainstorming than editing, rambling to an extent is fine (else I'd be ejected out of hand)--it gives us a chance to make sure we really understand what we think we understand. But for writing that purports to be an article for practitioners (who will use it) rather than for academics (who's job it is to understand and model it), it needs that laser focus.

Rick "respectfully submitted" Denney

[mark38655]

Thanks very much for posting Rick. Five single spaced pages is how long it is now, and that's way too long. Its a challenge for me to reduce that down to one good paragraph, but if I do, it will reach more people for sure.

I guess what I really want to say is that tuning is about learning to match pitch, and that visual tuners are helpful only to the extent that they affect the ability of a player to do that. Then the use of an earplug with Sharpeye2, Finale and SmartMusic make it easy to teach all students to effectively match pitch on-the-fly while performing.

Often the naive conductor/teacher takes all responsibility and tries to micromanage his players' tuning. In reality, he can only share responsibility in rehearsal and has no control in performances. He will often wear himself out using outdated methods for tuning his students, and never get the results he could get if he learned a few simply methods for teaching and holding his students responsible for their own good pitch.

[UDELBR]

Then the use of an earplug with Sharpeye2, Finale and SmartMusic make it easy to teach all students to effectively match pitch on-the-fly while performing.

Ears also work for this.

[toobagrowl]

Playing "in tune" is mostly an ensemble skill. If you are "right on" according to the tuner but 10c sharp to the ensemble, then YOU are the one that's out of tune.
Equal Temperament tuning is good for solo intonation or if you are playing with an in-tune organ or piano. And it is good to use as a reference to see what your pitch tendencies are. But in an ensemble your EARS are the best tuner.

[PMeuph]

Of course, this is true...but the opposite is usually what occurs (as it is the rare instrumentalist who plays "flat"). As I expressed earlier, being a couple of hundredths of a semitone (in another octave, obviously) flatter than the piccolos is not that terrible of a thing, and possibly offers a better sonority.

Further, the greater the distance between the out of tune pitches the two instruments the less we perceive the dissonance. (If two tubas are playing the same pitch and one is out of tune it will be readily perceptible, however, if a tuba plays a pitch and a trumpet has the same pitch 3 octaves higher, the same degree of deviation in 100ths of semi tones will be less perceivable)

[ShoelessWes]

Of course, this is true...but the opposite is usually what occurs (as it is the rare instrumentalist who plays "flat"). As I expressed earlier, being a couple of hundredths of a semitone (in another octave, obviously) flatter than the piccolos is not that terrible of a thing, and possibly offers a better sonority.

THIS.

This is also a Marching Band and Drum Corps thing, that still has some following. It is terrifying how much you can stretch the octaves in an ensemble and it still work, and still sound VERY GOOD. It changes the sonority and vibrance of the group. It makes a group sound really bright, and it also makes the mid range voices sound much more prominent.

This is very subtle (at least one prominent DC uses double-ish this), but I like the setup of:

438- Tubas, if pegging either way, just on the low side
439- Trombones/Tubas/Corresponding WW, if pegging either way just on the low side
440- Mid Range Brass/WW, on the money or as close as possible
441- Trumpets/WW, if pegging either way just on the high side
442- Flute, if pegging either way just on the high side.

It seems to work well with younger groups and smaller groups. It takes away some of the responsibilities in tuning and it also allows the melodic voices to do what they want to do anyway (play sharp).

The thing that makes me smile about stretched octave tuning, is that you really can't tell in the chord tuning... but you can tell in the timbre of the ensemble.

[toobagrowl]

Of course, this is true...but the opposite is usually what occurs (as it is the rare instrumentalist who plays "flat"). As I expressed earlier, being a couple of hundredths of a semitone (in another octave, obviously) flatter than the piccolos is not that terrible of a thing, and possibly offers a better sonority.

I believe it is probably best to mostly play below ref. A=440 hz. (flatter as one plays lower ) when playing a tuba solo with a well-tuned piano. The middle octave of the piano (just above "middle c") is tuned right at ref. A=440 hz. The lower the piano descends into the left-hand range, the flatter it is tuned. It is not uncommon for a well-tuned piano to be at least twenty 1/100ths of a semitone flat (barely above 27 hz. - as compared to a 27.5 hz. "A" which would be a perfect divisor of 440 hz.) on it's very lowest A♮. With this in mind, I would - with a few exceptions - tend to play flatter as I played lower (when performing with a piano accompaniment).

True. 15c flat on a tuba does sound more in-tune than 15c sharp.
As an example - I tuned myself on the ole CC tuba yesterday to see where my pitch tendencies were since I have not been playing that tuba regularly (like I should be doing ). Anyway, I have it set up so the first valve notes are a little flat - around 15c. Well I had orch. rehearsal tonight and ya know those first valve notes (F, Bb, D) sounded in tune when lightly "lipped up". Those notes were still probably 5-10c flat, but sounded in tune in the orch. It helps that there is one tuba too
If it was the same amount on the sharp side, it would not have been as "in tune".

Another example - I have put my tuner up to an electronic keyboard before. The keyboard sounded nasty and out of tune, but guess what? It was smack in-tune according to the tuner...
Like I said: our ears are the best tuner. What is the point of listening to something if it sounds like crap? Make sure it sounds good!

As far as pianos go......we are slaves to them if we play with them. We have to match their intonation - they can't try to match your pitch like a good ensemble player can. Same thing with organs.

Btw, have you ever put your tuner up to your favorite tuba CD? You may be surprised!