List great 3 valve tubas

[Misterguru]

My dilemma: I want a full size, upright bell horn to "keep forever."
I will likely buy a King 1241 or Miraphone from my buddy Dan here locally, and that's great... but the TRUTH is I like 3 valve horns. I learned on 3 valves. My Sousa is a 3 valve, and I really don't need 4 valves at my playing level

So:
(1) What are some great 3 valve horns that are going to be in the acoustic league of a King 1241?
or
(2) Just tell me I am stupid and should buy the 1241 or Miraphone

[bort]

How about King 2340 or 1240? That's just the 3-valve version of what you already like!

[MartyNeilan]

Martin 6/4 BBb. The older the better.

[daytontuba]

I have a 1932 vintage King 1240 (3 valve - bell front) and still think it is one of the best horns I have played. I note you mentioned Dan in your message, and I think he has an assortment of similar horns. In spite of the fact that most of the darkish gold lacquer King was using back then has disappeared (or turned more black than gold), the horn still sounds nice (well, at least to me!) and the valves (all original) still are quick and easy for my smallish hands. Having said that, keep in mind that I use this horn for practice or parades (well, riding parades!). I use a four valve horn for my community band work - the fourth valve enables you to play lower staff C's much more readily in tune, and is really, really needed for the lower staff B naturals (assuming you are desiring a BBb instrument). It also makes playing anything below lower E natural a piece of cake. Just wanted you to know that the fourth valve sure comes in handy for me, but the ultimate decision of what you want to play is what YOU want to play.

[iiipopes]

It's a tank, and 1+3 CC and 1+2+3 B nat can be stuffy, but:

Besson New Standard/B&H Imperial from mid-'50's through early '80's 3-valve comp with the 17-inch bell and .730 bore. Absolutely perfect intonation with the comp loops. The only reason I sold mine is that I needed a recording bell for some gigs, and I'm not in a position anymore to have more than one horn, so having souzy + tuba was out.

BUT...the guy I sold it to I have known for over 30 years, and if I need to borrow it back for any reason, it's there.

Here's how you play this beast: instead of 1+2 for G or D, use 3 alone and tune it "dead," because with the comp loops you don't have to pull or set 3 to have 2+3 or 1+3 in tune, and both 1 & 2 are also tuned "dead," which makes G & D fingered as 1+2 sharp. Depending on the particular horn, 2nd line B nat can be played either 1+2 or 3 alone. Relax into the C 1+3 and B nat 1+2+3. Next limitation: because of the comp plumbing and the bell taper, "false" or "privileged" tones aren't going to happen, but 99 44/100 of band literature doesn't go down past F below open BBb anyway. OTOH, 5th partials on mine with "the dent" in the primary knuckle between the 1st & 2nd valves were right on, so you can play D nat open, Db 2 and C 1 without worrying about it, and even 7th partials were usable and lippable as top space G-open and Gb-2nd.

Last item: the horn works best with a Wick 1L mouthpiece, which has a 1.28 diameter, deep funnel, and large throat. But with the resistance of the comp block, it doesn't take as much air as it might seem otherwise.

[J.c. Sherman]

King 1291

Martin 6/4

Old Bueschers or York 4/4s

Those are my votes (assuming BBb).

J.c.S.

[The Big Ben]

Another vote for the 2340 King. Easy to play in tune, nice sound, lots of them.

[iiipopes]

And if you can't find a Besson 3-valve comp, then yes, a King 1240 will work just fine. But do consider a 4-valve, as that is more the standard, and depending on your budget, so many more models available. You don't have to use the 4th valve, but it is handy to have in some circumstances, depending on the passage and the fingerings required.

If you do get a 3-valve tuba, here's how to tune it:
1) check both open BBb's and bottom of the staff open F for tuning and if any of the three notes are off, split the difference with the main tuning slide. Alternatively, if F is not intonating, but the two BBb's are, see if F sounds better in tune 1+3.
2) pull 1 slightly and set it so it is a few cents flat from "dead," and so 1+2 is lippable down to pitch, but 1 alone can still be lipped up to pitch.
3) pull 2 slightly and set it so it is a few cents flat from "dead," and so 1+2 is lippable down to pitch, but 2 alone can still be lipped up to pitch.
4) pull 3 and set it so 2+3 is slightly flat, but lippable up to pitch, so 1+3 can be lipped down to pitch.
5) 1+2+3 will be problematic and sharp, requireing lipping and/or pulling in any event.

[Bob Kolada]

Nuts to that. Tune 3 for 2-3, and yank for 1-3 and 1-2-3 (or, tune it for 1-3 and push in for 2-3 and out for 1-2-3)*. If the horn has good enough partials you can just move the 3rd slide for those and forget about everything else. I find moving the 3rd slide easier than moving the 1st slide for concert band music. Less bopping around.

On three valve Eb's I sometimes do the split tuning thing mentioned above, but as they are smaller horns I have to play "faster" in the "lower" register. Most likely, on a 3 valve Bb in a community band the 1-3 tuning will be fine for just about everything. Split tuning only works for tubas with unusable valve slides and those "oh ****, 16th note runs!!11!" licks.

[iiipopes]

Split tuning only works for tubas with unusable valve slides and those "oh ****, 16th note runs!!11!" licks.

Exactly. You've described the King 1240 and the OP's self confessed limitations perfectly. That's why I posted as I did. Remember the 1st valve circuit on the 1240 has a shorter upper loop unless it's been "flipped," and the 3rd circuit has a double wrap making manipulation difficult.

[b.williams]

I vote for option #2: You are stupid and should buy the 1241 or Miraphone
(Assuming a Miraphone 186 BBb)

I have owned several Kings and Miraphone 186s and they are both very good horns. They both can be played right out of the box and both have good resale value. BTW, 4th valves don't eat very much and don't talk back or get grumpy if you ignore them.

[J.c. Sherman]

King's can't really be set at an in-tune 2&3, in my experience; the third valves tend to be a tiny bit low. And anyway, I always put three-valvers with 3 in tune with 1&3. That way, 2&3 is just a scosh off and 1 2 3 is lippable or you can pull 2 or 1.

YMMV

J.c.S.

[iiipopes]

King's can't really be set at an in-tune 2&3, in my experience; the third valves tend to be a tiny bit low. And anyway, I always put three-valvers with 3 in tune with 1&3. That way, 2&3 is just a scosh off and 1 2 3 is lippable or you can pull 2 or 1.
YMMV
J.c.S.

My point exactly. King in all their valved brass, tended to make 3 long for this very reason. When I was still playing trumpet in school, my friends couldn't understand why they had to kick 3 pretty far to get 1+3 in tune, and I only had to kick my Dad's King Super 20 (read my signature) @ 1/4 inch to its built in collar stop.

[kegmcnabb]

Reynolds Contempora...' fabulous big powerful clean sound / very good scale

+1

Wish I still had mine!

[Matt Walters]

I dare say there are few people who have played a wider variety of tubas than I have so I will chime in on this one. The best 3 valve BBb tuba I have EVER played was Tom Railsback's (Author of "The Drums Would Roll") turn of the century 3 valve top action King BBb. It's fixed bell is slightly taller than the current King 2341 tuba but the same .687" bore. I finally found one of 1915-1917 vintage sans valves. I'm de-denting an Eb valve set only 3 serial numbers away and then sending it out for an Anderson valve job. After I put the BBb tubing on that valve set and put it back on the tuba, I think I may have the best 3 valve BBb ever. With leaking valves from the Eb put into the BBb valve set, it already plays great like I remember Tom's did some 20 plus years ago. They have awesome "false tones" so I don't really need the 4th to play low for my community band work. Anytime I start to play it, my wife tells me, "I really like the sound of that one." I might be switching from CC to BBb in the next year or two.

[MartyNeilan]

Nuts to that. Tune 3 for 2-3, and yank for 1-3 and 1-2-3 (or, tune it for 1-3 and push in for 2-3 and out for 1-2-3)*. If the horn has good enough partials you can just move the 3rd slide for those and forget about everything else. I find moving the 3rd slide easier than moving the 1st slide for concert band music. Less bopping around.

I agree with Bob - moving the 3rd slide may be the way to go, as long as everything else more or less lines up.

[Misterguru]

Great responses! Thanks!
One more question: Are the DEG (Dynasty) tubas Chinese imports or ??
It looks like a DEG 845L from Taylor Music would come in at budget, and convert to a shoulder tuba for my few New Orleans style jazz gigs (bye bye Sousaphone which would be good -- tiny house!).

But if it's run of the mill junk, and you know it, please say so. I know they are used by some drum corps, but I also want it for concert band work.

Tim soon-to-be-owning-a-King-or-Miraphone-I-am-sure Williams

[J.c. Sherman]

Most of the DEGs have historically been made by Jupiter and I think that's still the case.

J.c.S. (who doesn't like this model at all!)

[Misterguru]

OK, thanks again! Mira 186 or King 1241 afterall.
Great input from you guys, thanks!

[tclements]

Here's MY list: