Used versus new

[Lingon]

Just a little thought and I may be totally wrong as usual...

I have taken the following comment from Misterguru in another thread as a starting point for a new topic. It is therefore not a comment directed to the quoted forumite.

...But really, the 1966 model Miraphone I just bought is still a better tuba than the $1795 bargain you speak of and it has more resale value 2 years from now than a Jin Bao when I can afford a Kantsul or another offering...

(the complete comment)

If I want an older used instrument then I think that argument is perfectly all right and the used one will probably have approx the same value if I decide to sell it later on. However, for even less money I might be able to get a used Chinese one. Unfortunately these are almost never to be found. Are they scrapped directly or does the owners maybe like to play and keep them?! One of the few cases when you can buy used and be sure that it will have a higher value later is when you buy old used string instruments. But that's not the scope of this discussion.

If I buy a new Jinbao or whatever, the new instrument will certainly have a lower value when you sell it. I think that is true irrespective if you buy a brand new European, American, Asian or where you can find a playable instrument from.

So far many of the discussions about pros and cons when buying an instrument seems to compare new versus used. While that is an interesting discussion per se and has a lot of environment and other parts in it, I think it is not perfectly fair to make the comparison in that way. Don't start flaming yet, read to the end first please.

Questions that I have are, how much does a Hirsbrunner, Mira, Nishrl, Kanstul or other more or less classic brands lose in value when going out of the store with it's first owner? How much value does a JB or other Asian instrument lose in the same situation? Remember here that I do not put in environmental aspects just the, initial, price drop. The long term value for them remains to be seen.

Do not misinterpret my grumblings, I really like old stuff, the older the better in many cases and we can learn much from it, but not everyone does. I am also curious about newer things. All in all I do not like bad stuff irrespective if it is new or old. Some people absolutely want a brand new, shiny instrument and rejects, maybe even the thought of, used ones. If they do not have an ocean of money but want something (new) that plays well and is of relatively of really good quality, which are the alternatives?

[ginnboonmiller]

Good questions that will take a few years to have answers, I think.

Of course, regardless of all of this, tubas are a terrible investment. They lose value over time. Period. If you want to invest in musical instruments, play around with electric guitars, where at least you can have a fighting chance of profit when you're done with the thing.

Given all of that, I never really understood why this was an issue for a tuba buyer in the first place. If you're buying an instrument with an eye on re-selling it, you're guaranteed to lose. Lose $1000 or so with a Chinese tuba, or lose more with a better but more expensive tuba. Seems to me that you should be buying tubas for keeps, and not concerning yourself with resale at all.

That said...

When my Rudi was stolen, I took the above attitude around tuba shopping. I actually had narrowed my choice down to two very different tubas. One was built in China and came in way under budget. The other was built in East Germany and priced just right. I bought the better sound in the end, which was the B&S, but I might have been just as happy with the Miraclone in the end (not as big or dark a sound, but easier to play by far).

Now that I've recovered the Rudi, which will be off to Lee Stofer for restoration this year, I get to sell the "replacement" tuba, and I'm probably going to lose more money on the sale, but I'll have more cash in hand at the end of the day. Money is weird.

[Michael Bush]

I bought a used JInbao 210 when I first started playing again. The seller lost money when he sold it to me. But then a while later I put it on eBay and just let it run. It was bid up to $301 more than I paid for it, roughly $200 less than the first owner paid for it, I believe.

[Rick Denney]

It's hard to know. Most people do not sell new instruments soon after they buy them. Used instruments that don't work out might change hands more quickly, of course, because there is less cost impact.

Classic old instruments often hold their value or even increase in value, at least in actual (not real) dollars. I could today sell my Yamaha 621 F tuba for more than what I paid for it, and I bought it new (as a demo). I could sell my Holton for considerably more than its new cost in actual dollars. York Master and Miraphone, too. Many 60's-70's quality instruments will sell for more than their new price.

Few tubas will attract a price beyond their value as usable instruments to be played. And all of those are owned by Mike.

With the Chinese instruments, we just don't know. I suspect their resale value will be related to their quality as instruments, when they reach the condition where their appearance no longer attracts those who want something that looks new. One question with them is how quickly they will reach an unmarketable condition, and this may well be controlled by their target market (student beginners) as by their durability. We may see them on ebay for a few hundred dollars at most in terribly battered condition.

Will a battered old Miraphone retain as much of the percentage of its new price as a battered old Jin-Bao? I suspect it will, because it's more likely to survive to that level of experience. Will used Jin-Bao being sold in 2040 sell for more than what it costs new now? That's a statement on the value of the dollar as much as anything. I think that's too hard to predict. But if one can't visualize a 2012 Jin-Bao being in sellable condition in 2040, then one has the answer.

But I think the root of the general recommendation is that for a given number of dollars, one is getting more for their money with a proven old instrument rather than with a speculative new instrument. And it is also a cost-of-ownership strategy. If one buys a proven old instrument at its depreciated salvage value ("salvage" meaning fully depreciated playable instrument, not value as a hunk of brass), one can sell it for the same price a few years later when they have a better idea of what they really want. Thus, cost of ownership is near zero. Given that the new ultra-budget instrument that they can buy at the same price today still has some depreciating to do, the cost of ownership will necessarily be higher.

I do think it's a fair comparison, because people go into a purchase with a budget, and the question is how to make best use of that budget.

Rick "who usually buys used instruments, desiring more instrument for the money" Denney

[Lectron]

A Jinbao is hard to beat for its price, given they stand more or less alone there.

And...Some of them sound a heck of a lot better than what you should
expect for 50% more or even twice the price.

The problem is.....Every one I've tried (and it's a few now) I've had to spend hours
setting them in the shape I need them to be..It's either sharp edges ruining my pants,
sticking valves, noisy valves, bad solderings...Always something...and it kinda never stops.

So yea...some of them sound really good, but you just get sooo tired of working your
instrument instead of playing it.

Selling it would in most cases mean loosing money, while a 2nd hand one very often could
be moved on for the same price.

So...IMO....You want something that plays OK...just not everyday..Buy cheap new.
Want something to enjoy everyday, but might not look as good (the first year)...Go 2nd hand

[Trevor Bjorklund]

Another issue to consider is the possibility that a used instrument may have been modified in any number of ways. Perhaps the modifications suite the buyer, perhaps the instrument needs to be modified again or de-modified. With lead pipe adjustments, changing the position of the paddles, flipping slides, tubas seem to get significantly more modifications than other instruments! Of course, a new instrument may need some kind of adjustment - not counting cleaning up, of course... one would hope that clean-up work would be done by the seller - to fit the buyer.

Also, how do repairs figure into valuation? If a trombone slide has been trashed at some point, it will never be perfect again. But tubas seem to be able to withstand a whole lot of work and still play great, sometimes better than before. Many dents can be smoothed out to look good; others, like those through bow guards (as long as they don't affect playing), seem often left alone. What about bells that have been de-crinkled?

[ghmerrill]

So...IMO....You want something that plays OK...just not everyday..Buy cheap new.
Want something to enjoy everyday, but might not look as good (the first year)...Go 2nd hand

I don't think it's quite that simple (and I say that having owned a number of both used and new instruments of various brands and types). To get the right sort of comparison you at least have to relativize it to the same class of instrument. And that changes things a bit. I really do not believe that I could have bought a comparable (in terms of quality and performance) used instrument for the same price as my $750 Jin Bao compensating euphonium. And I looked and thought about this for months. And it is an everyday player. The closest I could come was a pretty good old 4-valve King, but that was smaller bore and non-compensating: not at all in the same class. (I did like the front-action valve, I'll confess.) Price for that was about $550 and it was pretty dinged up, but nothing really major; and it was in a local shop. But it wasn't a compensating euph. If only it had had five valves (but then think of what the price of that would be).

I fully expect this Chinese horn to go the distance, based at least on a comparison of its physical qualities to those of other instruments I own and have owned. It's not perfect, but I honestly don't think I could touch anything like it for anywhere near the price. Now if I had paid (as is quite possible and many have) $1,500 or $2,000 or more for what is essentially the same instrument, I wouldn't be saying that. In THAT case, I pretty clearly COULD find a good used instrument that would probably (though I have to say, not certainly) be as good as the Jin Bao (and never mind the superficial appearance of old vs. new).

I enjoy it every day. I also enjoy my old Amati oval euph every day (and will enjoy it more once I get the mouthpiece issue sorted out). I bought that used and then had to put some money into it to make it playable. I still need to work on the linkage a bit, but it is a fun horn (that in terms of finish looks as though it's been through someone's war). However, I now suspect that (independent of the coolness of having an old horn) I would have done better to get the Jin Bao clone of the Amati (and Amati isn't exactly top of the line, eh?). It at least would have had a large mouthpiece receiver on it and cost less even than this used one has cost me. And I think it would not leak at all.

But even this kind of experience varies a bit, depending on what kind or model of instrument we're talking about -- and what the differential cost is for a truly comparable one (think of the raging dispute about the Chinese F tubas). I just don't think there is one general guideline for buying used or new.

[Wyvern]

The problem is.....Every one I've tried (and it's a few now) I've had to spend hours
setting them in the shape I need them to be..It's either sharp edges ruining my pants,
sticking valves, noisy valves, bad solderings...Always something...and it kinda never stops.

Lecton, Where are you getting these from - are you sure they really are JinBao? Different Chinese factories make what looks like the same instrument to sometimes different standards. If you get on Ebay from China, then the origin is unknown. I ask because I see a lot of real JinBao instruments and have been playing two myself for the last several months, and what you say is completely contrary to my experience. The piston valves on the 700 EEb have never once stuck and I can honestly say are more reliable than the Besson and B&S EEb I owned in the past. And after a few pound fitting new felts (which I now do as standard to all sold by Wessex) the valves are quiet and smooth. The same with the 410 rotary CC tuba, no problems at all. While the finish has noticeably improved in just the few months I have been selling - I have not seen any bad soldering in several dozen instruments sold in the last eight months. The finish is not always perfect, but is usually confined to no more than minor cosmetic blemishes. I really cannot see why they should not last many years - they seem robustly enough made.

Going back to the original question, surely it is a matter of personal choice, if to buy new, or used? However I have been told that buying used piston valve tubas you are more likely to have valve problems. Different people press at different angles and the valve beds in to its owners use. Then a new owner presses different to the bedding and that results in valve stick. How much truth there is in that, I don't know?

[sousaphone68]

I consider my self to be the average amateur tuba player I studied engineering not music because I was never going to be good enough to be a pro. I played the same tuba for 25 years because it was my only tuba. I reached my 40s and for a brief window could spend my money on tubas,
So I bought 2 Chinese tubas new and a used European Bb tuba my two new tubas are exactly what I hoped they would be despite their bad press.
The cervenish tuba despite a €200 visit to the repair shop still dissappoints intonation wise.
I did not buy either of my asian tubas or my Conn sousaphone with an eye to their re sale value and toyed briefly with selling my Besson but when push came to shove could not sell.
I have to admit that I do not understand the buy to sell model that some players follow as I will not put myself through the roller coaster of emotions and worry that amateurs go through when committing their hard earned disposable income to new instruments new or used ever again.
I am grateful to Neptune for putting a useable new tuba my way and was even more grateful that he as a Tuba player knew and understood the rollercoaster that I was on.

Edit I bought in the following order a 26 K from ebay many thanks to the seller from Virginia a very easy ebay transaction. then a Bb euph very cheap from eBay then a JB700 and a travel tuba from Neptune and a Cervenish (no makers name or any engraving on it) 4 valve Bb rotary valve tuba my next purchase will be a divorce and then a tuba

[sousaphone68]

Edited after PM

[PMeuph]

The problem is.....Every one I've tried (and it's a few now) I've had to spend hours
setting them in the shape I need them to be..It's either sharp edges ruining my pants,
sticking valves, noisy valves, bad solderings...Always something...and it kinda never stops.

Lecton, Where are you getting these from - are you sure they really are JinBao? Different Chinese factories make what looks like the same instrument to sometimes different standards. If you get on Ebay from China, then the origin is unknown. I ask because I see a lot of real JinBao instruments and have been playing two myself for the last several months, and what you say is completely contrary to my experience. The piston valves on the 700 EEb have never once stuck and I can honestly say are more reliable than the Besson and B&S EEb I owned in the past. And after a few pound fitting new felts (which I now do as standard to all sold by Wessex) the valves are quiet and smooth. The same with the 410 rotary CC tuba, no problems at all. While the finish has noticeably improved in just the few months I have been selling - I have not seen any bad soldering in several dozen instruments sold in the last eight months. The finish is not always perfect, but is usually confined to no more than minor cosmetic blemishes. I really cannot see why they should not last many years - they seem robustly enough made.

The latest Jinbao I tried is two years old, the oldest is about 5 years old. The older one (A comp euph) needed $100 of (overpriced) repairs and lots of tweaking on my part... The newest one, a bass trombone, needed some valve work (... quick and dirty with some brasso did the trick) and could use new paddles and rods on the triggers... They both produced nice tones, and the tuning was about the same as the yamaha copies.

However, It is easier for a company to earn a bad reputation, on several poor instruments, then it is for them to earn a great reputation on lots of good instruments. That is just human nature...

The mouthpieces are still crap....

I think there are more good deals to be had used than with the Jinbao's, however with used horns you have to be patient and sometimes wait years... The Jinbao's can be obtained in months... (more or less depending on the seller)

______
Today, I just received a really neat B&S peashooter trombone that I got of eBay for about $45(with shipping!!!). I could probably sell it for $90 If I wanted to... I doubt any new horn could sell for its full retail price...

[Lectron]

The problem is.....Every one I've tried (and it's a few now) I've had to spend hours
setting them in the shape I need them to be..It's either sharp edges ruining my pants,
sticking valves, noisy valves, bad solderings...Always something...and it kinda never stops.

Lecton, Where are you getting these from - are you sure they really are JinBao? Different Chinese factories make what looks like the same instrument to sometimes different standards. If you get on Ebay from China, then the origin is unknown. I ask because I see a lot of real JinBao instruments and have been playing two myself for the last several months, and what you say is completely contrary to my experience. The piston valves on the 700 EEb have never once stuck and I can honestly say are more reliable than the Besson and B&S EEb I owned in the past. And after a few pound fitting new felts (which I now do as standard to all sold by Wessex) the valves are quiet and smooth. The same with the 410 rotary CC tuba, no problems at all. While the finish has noticeably improved in just the few months I have been selling - I have not seen any bad soldering in several dozen instruments sold in the last eight months. The finish is not always perfect, but is usually confined to no more than minor cosmetic blemishes. I really cannot see why they should not last many years - they seem robustly enough made.

They have never stuck on the 700, but the slots were very rough and has been eating quite a bit on the valve guide (specially 2nd valve). And since the metal insert in the valve guide rubs the slot, one can imagine the sound. the springs are also singing a lot as there are not anything centering them (well..now there is). The spring on the 4th valve needed btw to be shortened. The 'exterior' of the tuba needed to be worked a couple of places as it was ruining my cloth. Still..It's a keeper

The 800 came with loose soldering. The rotor valve can't be tightened as the housing is to big for the valve so the compression is bad.
The valve stem is tricky to get centered in the top-cap. The valve design is also well described by the village thinker. Due do the centering issue one of the valves kept getting stuck (now fixed)

The threads speaks for it-selves. A few of the valves I would never dear to open during a rehearsal as the threads are so rough and loose you really have to put all you mind into it to get it assembled again. IMO, it is just a question before the top-cap on one of'em pops.

The flanges and other reinforcing parts are under dimensioned on such big instruments, and I had to add some on the 800

The 600 speaks it's own li'll story.

They all needed server cleaning, but that was expected.

As for the finish? Better than expected.

So despite this....The 800 and 700 sound good, but needs work and attention.

I am somewhat surprised that people selling these instruments...And from what I understand a lot of them, does not seem to be aware of these issues

I simply do not believe that

[sousaphone68]

The first dozen times I unscrewed the caps on my 700 I was very carefull and worried as in my youth I wrecked the second valve top cap threads on my BH imperial.
The first 6 times I dissambled my JB700 were not easy as there was machine swarf in the thread and it took carefully re-assembly having never had to break in a new instrument before I do not know if this is a positive or negative.
Having lived with my 700 since June all has evened out and I now feel on top of the tuba it meets all my needs and baring my marching band needs I could accept it as my only tuba

[Wyvern]

I would agree that screwing the valve caps on the first few times can sometimes be fiddly (not every instrument, but some). Since yours Noel, I do grease the threads before they go out which does help.

However, as you have found after a few times on and off the valve caps get easily to thread.

I will put on my list to discuss at the factory next visit to see if they could use deeper threading (although I hear from customers that there is the same problem with some expensive instruments), but I doubt if the factory will make the change just for Wessex Tubas - so worth other dealers firing off emails. If a few of us are asking, then maybe they will take note and action?

[sousaphone68]

Not sure what follows is on topic but my only so far un resolved issue with Asian tubas is the uncertainty as to source that stenciling raises. At least one of the importers has on more than one occasion posted that the clone you see online may not be the one you expected.
I would be very happy if the importers who have the right to have what ever name they like engraved on the bell also had the factory name or some factory model engraved on the tuba some where.
This would be of great help to its resale value and would also reward those importers and factories that have listened and responded to buyers feedback and give the second hand market some hope.
Side note I intend to be buried in my my sousaphone or tuba case which ever fits best they are not for sale

[Lingon]

...I would be very happy if the importers who have the right to have what ever name they like engraved on the bell also had the factory name or some factory model engraved on the tuba some where.
This would be of great help to its resale value and would also reward those importers and factories that have listened and responded to buyers feedback and give the second hand market some hope...

That is a good point that may well lead to better responsibility from the factory too. Why buy a certain brand if they are bad or why not buy it if it is good? Yamaha is one good example that however nowadays also has grown to 'serious' prices.

Please guys all the talk about new Jinbaos compared to used of other brands, get back to topic, it started so nice. Now this thread has begun to be yet another Jinbao thread. I suggest you continue the pros and cons of those instruments in the new thread Jinbao tubas, bad and good.

A little reminder about my initial questions. I asked to compare and discuss about new instruments or used ones. Not new of one 'cheap' brand compared with a lot of used of other brands. I think we all know that it is perfectly possible to get a good used tuba for a price equaling some new Asian horns, and there are pros and cons of both new and used.

How much does a Mira, B&S, Melton etc tuba lose in value when you bring it out of the store?

How much does an Asian tuba, maybe exept the Yamahas, lose when take it out?

If you compare the loss on a classic brand with these 'cheap' brands could someone indicate approximately how much the initial loss would be, preferably in per cent of the price paid?

Are there alternatives other than Jinbao from the mainland China, or Taiwan or maybe Europe or the US or other places that can be bought new for a reasonable cost and hopefully work in a useful way?

[ghmerrill]

I would agree that screwing the valve caps on the first few times can sometimes be fiddly (not every instrument, but some). Since yours Noel, I do grease the threads before they go out which does help.

The valve caps on my euph are a bit tricky. The bottom ones in the 3-valve cluster more than the others. I believe that the problem is partly with the threading, but also partly with the hardness/softness of the brass. I have addressed the issue by spending some time to clean the threads and to "wear" them in, and also by applying some anti-seize compound (rather than grease) to the threads on the bottoms of the valve cluster.

However, I am unsure of exactly how much of this problem is peculiar to the Jin Bao instruments since I have seen reports of precisely the same problem with Yamaha instruments and Kanstul instruments, and (in a thread on the euph forums) seen this attributed to a Yamaha "design flaw" of some sort. (One contributor reported that this was a serious problem with the Kanstul trumpets he used as student rental instruments). I can't make a judgement on that, although it would be ironic if in copying the Yamaha instrument, its flaws were blindly copied as well. I do believe that the brass of the valves on my Amati and Cerveny rotary instruments is harder stuff, and I don't see such a problem there. In any event, I do not view it as a serious problem and it in no way inhibits removing/replacing the valves or oiling them.

[Dan Schultz]

Granted... since I am in the repair business, I have access to more 'used' horns than the average Joe. I am quite sympathetic with folks who have a limited budget and want quality musical instruments. I honestly don't think the words 'cheap' and 'quality' can be used in the same sentence. I have yet to see one of the newer 'imports' that is satisfactory to me 'right out of the box'. However.... some can be OK with the addition of a few hours work by a qualified repairman.

I'll take a Miraphone 186 or a slightly modified old King 1241 over any of the new models any time.

[Dean E]

. . . Please guys all the talk about new Jinbaos compared to used of other brands, get back to topic, it started so nice. Now this thread has begun to be yet another Jinbao thread. I suggest you continue the pros and cons of those instruments in the new thread Jinbao tubas, bad and good. . . .

Exactly what I was thinking. When analyzing products, similar products must be compared, or else the analysis fails. Especially when the discussion is theoretical, and not based on satisfactory amounts of collected data, but at the most on anecdotal reports. Nonetheless, in the absence of valid data collections I am willing to listen to the experts.

Simple supply and demand laws will not apply unless the substitute products are fungible (or interchangeable). Manufacturers of inexpensive products simply will increase production to meet demand. However, the production of luxury items is usually restricted to maintain high prices. For example, Corvettes and Harley Davidsons are produced in limited numbers to keep prices high. Also, marketing has a big impact on promoting demand that is based on the warm glow of ownership rather than objective data.

[PMeuph]

Let's start with a statement:

Used horns (from reputable makers) in reasonably good condition, seem to sell for 60-75% of their purchase price after 2-3 years. (That is the data I collected from the purchase of my 642).

Discuss...